Discussions regarding the Manjaro 2.0 Manifesto

[Cambionn]

I have to be honest, the fact Phil doesn’t reply but does post other things makes the hope on a civil split slowly fading. That being said, I am still hoping.

I have to admit, I am testing other things as well, especially for my main work laptop. I had an old Windows drive that needed to be formatted anyway. Not because I’m gonna switch tomorrow but because I work for a big company and I need to be prepared for issues. I am expected to get proper long term solutions in advance (or the company might just consider it one more reason to not allow Linux distro’s of choice. The horror! We can’t let that happen!). So that one needs a stable OS, not just in updates, but also in the people behind it. And with unclarity I need to prepare for the worst.

My biggest worry is if it comes to a fork, the fork for whatever reason doesn’t become as successful as hoped and things fall down. I hope not, I think it can succeed. But the issue is it could happen, and we have seen it go wrong with other distro’s in the past, despite the original project itself being liked and the initial positive signs. For most of my devices I can risk that, so those will stay on Manjaro or whatever will be it’s predecessor. But for my work laptop I cannot.

The good thing there is, I get a new laptop every 2~3 years, which means that if the new fork turns successful or the split happened after all, I have a great point to install Manjaro again even if this laptop gets moved to something else.

But for me, the main alternative seems to be plain Arch. If I cannot get the curated rolling releases and stability of Manjaro, I don’t see much reason to deal with derivatives tbh. Things like EndeavorOS and CachyOS don’t seem to add enough for me to do so, then I rather go with the base itself. I’m still testing Arch for now, must say the installer got easier/better than last I tried. Not Manjaro easy, but it works. I have to get into the OS the coming days.

Manjaro is unique, and by far my favourite for a reason. To be honest, it almost feels like betrayal to switch away after over 10 years. Manjaro has been good to me and I love it, it’s hard to leave. But as I said, it’ll stay on my other devices regardless (well unless everything Manjaro dies entirely, but I like to think that’s not on the horizon yet. Enough people still seem to work on saving it). And hopefully, we get some good news before I get to the point of flashing my workstation too. I’m still just testing.

For the record, I do have more plain Arch users at work. The OS is, as far as that’s concerned, stable enough in the right hands. And hé, at least I will get to make “I use Arch BTW” jokes for real. At least that would be something positive .

@a-sassermann

Because of 2 weeks package delay? come on look at most of the other distros to see what delay is all about

To be honest, I think the people complaining about this tend to be the ones who always want to be cutting edge, and aren’t great at imagining people having different wishes and requirements for software. I guess when it comes to Arch-based systems you’ll have those people relatively much, and with Manjaro being often compared to other Arch-based distro’s they react.

[Aragorn]

@Cambionn

I have to be honest, the fact Phil doesn’t reply but does post other things makes the hope on a civil split slowly fading.

Well, now that the matter is out in the open, it is also far more difficult for him to respond publicly without pulling a boatload of haters on top of himself. You do have to appreciate that as well.

Of course, this situation could have been avoided if only he had responded to us while we were still trying to keep it behind closed doors in the first place. So one could posit that, in the end, he brought it upon himself — he painted himself into a corner.

On the other hand, the back channels are still open for communication, and we remain hopeful — at least, for now — that he’d be using this more discreet avenue for communicating with us.

Unfortunately, even that has not been happening yet so far, and while we are patient and respectful, ultimately some decision will have to be made at some point. We can’t stay in this gambit forever.

[mr_glitch]

Thankfully @Ste74 showed up, so there is a spark of hope From what I remember (I wasn’t around for a loooong time) they were in good relation. So fingers crossed.

Discussions regarding the Manjaro 2.0 Manifesto

I have to apologize to all of you. It seems I’ve missed some of the events here. I believe, without fear of contradiction, that I, along with @guinux , @oberon , and of course @philm, am one of the “old timers” still active, if not as much as before, but still active in Manjaro. I have to be honest, I feel like I’m having flashbacks because we’ve already had these discussions or “storms” in the past. We’ve always come out stronger, and we’ll come out stronger this time too.

[Teo]

@Cambionn

If I cannot get the curated rolling releases and stability of Manjaro, I don’t see much reason to deal with derivatives tbh. Things like EndeavorOS and CachyOS don’t seem to add enough for me to do so, then I rather go with the base itself.

Exactly my thoughts. I came for the curated rolling. If it goes so far, i will probably take EOS just for the installer and then de-brand it, and voila - pure arch.

[jrichard326]

In a VM, I used archinstall and Calam-Arch- Installer for comparison and both got me very good, functioning Arch (Xfce, ext4, non-encrypted) installations. I am still running both with no issues.

[tracyanne]

My biggest, and only Major worry, is what happens if @philm becomes incapacitated, and can no longer do all the things he is single handed doing.

What then, what happens to the updates. Not to mention the already stalled replacement of older applications, and the releasing of bug fixes, and the perennial expired certificate.

[soundofthunder]

Not to mention the upkeep of the Manjaro site, SSL Certs and the Forum.

[Aragorn]

@tracyanne

My biggest, and only Major worry, is what happens if @philm becomes incapacitated, and can no longer do all the things he is single handed doing.

That is one of our implicit concerns as well, on top of everything else.

[Ste74]

For updates it’s not a problem, some of us including myself have access to Boxit which is the heart of the sync system with Arch and our overlays.. that’s not a problem.. if Is what you mean with update..

[tracyanne]

@Ste74

For updates it’s not a problem,

Well that is somewhat of a relief. If we are both talking about the release cycle.

Now there’s all the other things that are degrading Manjaro, to be dealt with.

[Ste74]

for the SSL problem there too I think I remember that @linux-aarhus had asked for access to the server to help but I don’t remember if it went well..
anyway let’s try not to lose our heads

[tracyanne]

@Ste74

let’s try not to lose our heads

I do not think anyone is losing their head. Yet.

These are very real concerns. They affect the stability and continuance of the project. I get that @philm may consider Manjaro HIS baby. But there appears to be no means for the project to successfully continue, if he can’t do those things he appears to have made his to control.

From where I sit, there appears to be no attempt to delegate… one of the very first things successful Managers (CEOs) do.

[Cambionn]

EDIT: excuse me. I’m a giant idiot accidentally edited my old message overwriting it with a new one. I put back the old but the quites are broken :') .

Well, now that the matter is out in the open, it is also far more difficult for him to respond publicly without pulling a boatload of haters on top of himself. You do have to appreciate that as well.

Of course, this situation could have been avoided if only he had responded to us while we were still trying to keep it behind closed doors in the first place. So one could posit that, in the end, he brought it upon himself — he painted himself into a corner.

On the other hand, the back channels are still open for communication, and we remain hopeful — at least, for now — that he’d be using this more discreet avenue for communicating with us.

This is kinda the thing. These issues have all been mentioned before over the years. Yet it has come this far. Now that it did, he could’ve reacted in private, yet it had to come public. Now that it has, we get one vague “I’m Not against it but I won’t do it myself” answer and then nothing. Not public, and apperantly not private. At this point, if he let it go this far without anything, I think it’s fair to have some worry.

I’m not jumping ship. I still have hope. As long as updates come, most of my devices will stay Manjaro. But hope is not enough to sell it to my boss. Imagine this situation with any other supplier in a business setting. That makes me sad. This whole situation makes me sad. But it’s a fact.

If there isn’t any decent development and my tests this week remain positive, I probably switch to plain Arch this weekend for my work laptop. Timing wise (with other stuff planned at work) it’s nicer now than over the coming weeks. But as said, even if so I can always come back to Manjaro. And I stay around with my other devices.

Exactly my thoughts. I came for the curated rolling. If it goes so far, i will probably take EOS just for the installer and then de-brand it, and voila - pure arch.

In a VM, I used archinstall and Calam-Arch- Installer for comparison and both got me very good, functioning Arch (Xfce, ext4, non-encrypted) installations. I am still running both with no issues.

Archinstall works quite smooth.

I had still have hope for a little hick-up, but it literally told me the link to the doc with the fixproper resolution. Quick check We’re working on my phone and now it’s installed and running smoothly. Nothing someone ready for running plane Arch can’t handle. Here it’s KDE, ext4, encrypted. First tests are quite positive too, have my basics set up quickly. In the end, it’s not that different from Manjaro after all. If it’s We just the installer you want, I’d suggest using archinstall over (ab)using EOS for thatneed a bit more time.

I don’t think there is an official Calamares installer for Arch is there? All I saw so quick was ALCI but it hasn’t been maintained in a while, and is still a deriviate anyways. Using unofficial ways to install might lead into issues and less or no support from the Arch community later on. Another reason I’d prefer going plain Arch over a deriviate. You can say a lotIn this case, but the documentation is superb and the community activeit does. At least for me.

[dennis1248]

@Cambionn

At this point, if he let it go this far without anything, I think it’s fair to have some worry.

I still have hope for a proper resolution. We’re working on it. We just need a bit more time.

[jofi]

@Cambionn

I probably switch to plain Arch this weekend for my work laptop.

New installation or trying to convert an existing Manjaro installation into Arch? You could also consider to switch to Manjaro’s unstable branch first.

[Cambionn]

@dennis1248

I still have hope for a proper resolution. We’re working on it. We just need a bit more time.

Hope and worry can co-exist. For me it does atm.

@jofi

New installation or trying to convert an existing Manjaro installation into Arch? You could also consider to switch to Manjaro’s unstable branch first.

New. I’m not gonna burn myself on trying to transfer the current one over. Feels like a recipe for weird issues along the line. Manjaro I can set up in an afternoon nowadays, so give me a weekend and I should be able to have Arch up and running. Especially when I will have already tested most things on my desktop’s secondary boot by then.

Work stuff is by default backed-up in our own cloud (we’re a hosting company, so it’s safely in our own data center) and my personal settings and such are easy to back-up. Beside, I’m the one who wrote the manual for things like installing the end-point detection and company VPN on Arch-based systems. So I’m not too worried there.

[angel2035]

The thing is, as long as the system doesn’t bother me with constant updates, I can focus on my tasks. But when updates start coming in 8 times a day, I lose focus trying to understand what’s changing. Just give it a try, and you’ll see what I mean — you can always leave later if you want.
You really can switch to the unstable branch, and there you will get all the latest updates (at least that’s how it used to be):
Switching Branches - Manjaro

[Ben]

@angel2035

But when updates start coming in 8 times a day,

For sure, if I went back to Unstable, I’d turn off all automatic checks… I think every 3-4 days is fine for me, and there would be no harm in putting it off weekly, or even monthly.

The main pros/cons of being a little late:

1. You can’t be first to post ‘Update went fine!’ or ‘First Post!’ unless you just spam the forum before you run the update.
2. You can read the nightmare everyone else had and laugh at them mockingly as you avoid the pitfalls.

[Cambionn]

@angel2035

The thing is, as long as the system doesn’t bother me with constant updates, I can focus on my tasks. But when updates start coming in 8 times a day, I lose focus trying to understand what’s changing.

Oh this I can deal with. I’m way to busy doing 500 things at once to worry about 8 updates a day lol. I generally do it once a week, with extra in between if there is urgency or I simply have some extra time. Turns out that ADHD cán help I guess, because you’re too busy doing other stuff too much and then forget. I always schedule an update moment just in case .

Constant updates aren’t an issue per se, as long as my system doesn’t break by waiting until I have time to install. But I don’t see why it would if I still update regularly. Then I will make sure I have time often enough to keep my system secure. Which is at least once a week, often more.

@Ben

For sure, if I went back to Unstable, I’d turn off all automatic checks…

I love how the Octopi Notifier gives me a clear icon to see updates, but doesn’t actually bother me. Just silently changing between red ghost, yellow ghost, and green ghost depending on the update status. Enough in your face to be clear and remind you, yet silent enough not to be a bother when you want to finish other stuff first. It’s perfect for anyone who does care enough to update their systems without bothersome notifications . Sadly most people are not like that, and would never update if they aren’t bothered enough or want a new shiny feature. No one cares for security patches these days .

[Ben]

@Cambionn

I love how the Octopi Notifier gives me a clear icon to see updates

It’s more reliable than Matray at least - often the updates come through before the thread… but there’s no harm ignoring all of this until the thread comes up… The best thing about the Octopi notifier is that it uses a green and red Pacman ghost, reminding me of the incredible upgrade that Pacman was on the Amiga compared to the original Arcade game… with the pounding stereo soundtrack, cost me a few nights sleep did that game.