We Need to Save What Made Linux and FOSS Possible!

opensource
#1

Article - https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/we-need-save-what-made-linux-and-foss-possible

This article is just talking about the freedom and openness that made FOSS and Linux possible and why in the current timeline, we maybe losing the fight! Why the ideological war/protest about freedom and openness in FOSS and other parts of tech may have not been vocal like it was before.

Very interesting article, as a FOSS/Freedom enthusiast this made me question my usage of Slack and other proprietary software I use a lot without understanding the real consequences. Of course some of it cannot be avoided for obvious reasons, but maybe some of it can be?

What are your thoughts?

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#2

Don't know why but i avoid articles that tend to cover: philosophical, technical and moral "issues" all together, no matter how well they appear to be written, and what "good" intentions display.
Thanks for sharing tho! :slight_smile:

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#3

You collaborate on those stupid tools. But I don't see what you'd miss if you just switched over to matrix, or even telegram.
It really seems even more stupider than with "convincing people to switch to linux", considering we are talking about professionals.

Is.. is this supposed to be a provocation or a trolling attempt? Seriously, this is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to start.
You literally can play AAA games on day one nowadays. And you literally have (wait for it) *working drivers*.
If the glass is going awry today, when ever has it shined more?

Yeah, let's put aside that I cannot recall from the top of my mind, a single area where today there isn't a viable open source alternative.
From science, to animation, to RE, to codecs.. you know, whole open operating systems being objectively usable by everyone.

HTTP/3 is still rolling out. What are we talking about?

Pages being heavy is a fair concern then, but I don't think the IT departments of newspapers are full of the "lost FOSS boys" this article seems to call out.
Besides anyway, AMP is almost up to W3C levels of openness, just FIY.

And the concept of javascript trap seems stupid tbh.

I definitively agree "[permissive] licenses are [only] great for code you don't care about" and all the other things.
There's always that risk with bigger companies doing ■■■■■ But can we stop appreciating a moment how much BSD/Apache/MIT software we have that is better than the proprietary one we had just years ago?

Do they deserve trust? Not particularly. Is there a reason to distrust? The answer is no too (especially considering if they didn't despised sharing they could have kept the thing close to begin with)

Then maybe, raise your head and see that just about every piece of silicon on this earth (but PowerVR gpus AFAICT) has an open source driver under development or already developed?
Phones (and I don't mean niche products by librem) are probably going to run mainline by next year for the records.

I'm worn.

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#4

Not quite sure I have anything coherent to say but for some reason I was reminded of this video. (Many you might already have seen it?) It bears at least tangential interest on the topic, and well you know, Linus made Linux possible. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

It terms of general approach to open source software I find his comments enlightening (and reasonable) but there is definitely a bit of the old fire/cheek that brought rumblings somewhat recently.

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#5

Telegram isn't really FOSS, just fyi. DrKLO doesn't really release all the code. He even closed the issue tracker a long while back. And refuses pull requests.

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#6

Putting aside being slow isn't the same of "not releasing", you know there isn't just the android client? And that they have 3rd party ones, the official one for desktop, the tiny library all open source to the higher standard, etc.?
And I remember when they still had the tracker. AFAICT they took it down because if was just so much overcrowded of BS.

They aren't really 100% FOSS, if any, simply because the server still is proprietary if any imo.
EDIT: full source code of last version is now available

1 Like
#7

I am not pin pointing or judging. But on of the reasons why Linux and FOSS/FOSH (Open hardware?) got shaped the way it got shaped is because of the emphasis on freedom and openness ideology don't you think?

You collaborate on those stupid tools. But I don't see what you'd miss if you just switched over to matrix, or even telegram.

@mirh - Hey I think you miss the point. When I was working on this startup company, Slack was the go-to tool for them. And then once I am out of that now, we have an Alum group which is an ex employee's group. They are non-technical included with technical people. And as you might have guessed, the Alum group is a slack workspace. How do I push a group of hundred to move from slack to anything that is open source? It's not easy as you might think.

Not to mention how difficult it was to get a Linux laptop in the company. Even though there was a lot of Linux laptops. I had to use every opportunity I got to emphasis on my superior in charge. Sarcastic and joking always why Linux is better for me for 2.5 years before I finally could run away from MacOS!

That is where the below points from the article comes in handy and important! Educating the rest...

  • "If you didn't live the history, learn from those who did."
  • "If you did learn from history, teach those who need to know it. Respectfully."
  • "Be patient. Remember that the tortoise won not only because it was patient, but because it ignored insult, ridicule and dismissal."

It is hard to shift the people (even if they're a technical bunch, we need them to understand FOSS, Open culture) to shift them to a more free/open source space in tech.

It really seems even more stupider than with "convincing people to switch to linux", considering we are talking about professionals.

Can you please explain what you meant here. I don't think I understood the point here. : )

I definitively agree "[permissive] licenses are [only] great for code you don't care about" and all the other things.

True, just think about the 2014 OpenBSD incident! A lot of amazing projects are coming from OpenBSD, LibreSSL and OpenSSH. Even their page says " OpenSSH is incorporated into many commercial products, but very few of those companies assist OpenSSH with funding. " I don't know how much, but BSD license have definite connection to the problem.

But can we stop appreciating a moment how much BSD/Apache/MIT software we have that is better than the proprietary one we had just years ago?

Yes! Totally. I do think it is better. Also, it don't depends on the project. But hey, when you're creating something huge which could be used by the world. Make sure you choose the license wisely. Because the project might depend on it.

1 Like
#8

Maybe.

But then, again, there is a HUGE gap between the "Free" as in "Freedom" and "Free" as in "Not costing anything" (or "Free" as in "Giving Microsoft the finger") people.

For me, open source is secondary. So is, I wager, the case for the vast majority of Linux users. The hard core group that once was the ONLY group is outnumbered these days by schools, companies, users who just don't want to upgrade their computer, save the life of an old computer, or just want to try something that looks neat, or is tired of cleaning Grandma's computer fro viruses twice a month.

I ALWAYS use proprietary drivers. Of course I do, they work so much better (or work, period). In fact it's a little weird seing FOSS fundamentalists on an Arch based distro and not pure Debian or at least Parabola, distros that are guaranteed to not cater to anything but open source hardware drivers.

I also dual boot into Windows for gaming. It is much MUCH easier than to get the games to work in Manjaro (and even tho several does, if i dual boot for the others, I might as well dual boot for all of them). And I feel no shame for that. Just like I don't feel bad for using the best software, even if it's not free. (There's a reason why Google Chrome is the most used browser in Linux. I primarely use Chromium over Chrome, but if Chromium wasn't there I would go Chrome over Firefox any day of the week).

As for open alternatives... I tend to stay away from small Social Networks, for example, until I know their ban policies. Too many of them survive only on White Supremacists, Nazis, anti-feminists etc since they are banned from the big ones. We're finally getting Twitter cleaned from the scum, why would I want to join them anywhere else? And that's without mentioning having to convince my windows using friends to download some obscure app they've never heard of to keep up with me.

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#9

Well then when M$ enters the Linux arena and starts trying to turn Linux into a mirror of Windows you should feel right at home then. Lindows anyone?

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#10

I do believe the days are very numbered for free as in beer, Apple has a lot of free apps some are linux to run on Mac most are not free or they are limited till you pay

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#11

I hope your wrong, very sad the way things are headed.

#12

This is everything what the article is talking about. Taking for granted what made Linux and FOSS possible! - FREEDOM AND OPENNESS. I do respect your POV on how you're thinking about functionality first approach.

Well then when M$ enters the Linux arena and starts trying to turn Linux into a mirror of Windows you should feel right at home then. Lindows anyone?

@tbg - My view - hell NO! I am clapping my hands slowly for everything and being very skeptical. Always thinking about the worst things that could come out of it! I have no idea what they are going to do and Linux Foundation seems to be more interested in $$$ these days.

Also @tbg / @Beardedgeek72 - Drop privacy and security into the mix and FOSS/Freedom-Openness ideology becomes hell a lot important in the coming years! I see FOSS and the openness ideology has a huge role in the coming years!

I hope your wrong, very sad the way things are headed.

Same! I have my friend who writes FOSS software (He actually introduced me to Linux, FOSS/Open culture) and he uses MacOS!

Edit: Redacted portions from my initial message because it felt irrelevant and uncool.

#13

The reason i mentioned i avoid such topics (philosophical, technical and moral) together is because they can not be mixed. Is a stretch to talk about morals (or lack of them) in a technology topic. You mentioned it in your last post, but then you realized that there is no moral obligation as a netizen and removed the related remarks to it as could be interpreted as you stand on a higher moral ground :slight_smile:

I'll reformulate it to: "We are all pin pointing and judging" because we, humans are cognitive beings. Every rational decision we take is based on judgment. I don't believe in a possible technocratic utopia as it would lack morals; transhumanism would be the next stage and would actually nullify the need of morals, and i can't see how that is a good thing; yet this days everyone has a dream or an agenda:

and/or/vs

and that sums up our actual social and cultural status ...

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#14

Oh NO! I stand by my words (most of it). No change in it. But felt it was an uncesessary personal attack (not at all intentional, I reread it many times and felt it was very badly articulated) and also felt irrelevant to the thread topic. And I know there would nothing productive coming out of that. So removed it. :slight_smile:

I'll reformulate it to: "We are all pin pointing and judging" because we, humans are cognitive beings. Every rational decision we take is based on judgment. I don't believe in a possible technocratic utopia as it would lack morals; transhumanism would be the next stage and would actually nullify the need of morals, and i can't see how that is a good thing; yet this days everyone has a dream or an agenda:

Exactly the reason why I removed that. I am trying to listen more these days more than ever before, because as you mentioned, everyone has a dream and agenda. And I want to hear em!

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#15

Yes, but in the article there was a slight hint to what you noticed you did with the retracted comment ... but they still stand by it :wink:

#16

Did you mean *"If you did learn from history, teach those who need to know it. Respectfully ." ?? :smile:

#17

Ah. But you, and the article, still come from the flawed point of view that most linux users CARE about FOSS the way you do. Most don't. Most don't even know what Open Source IS until AFTER installing Linux.

I'm sorry but beyond the fact that your statement simply doesn't make sense, what exactly, to you, would Microsoft "do" to make Linux "more like Windows" and why would it be "bad"?

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#18

Oh no, I know that! My dad uses MX Linux and he doesn't have an idea about Linux let alone Open culture. That old laptop should be fast and that is all, for my dad. Also, there are a lot of people in the tech industry who uses linux just because it is the only option.

The point or at least what I understand is how people who knows about the open culture are taking it for granted. We are supposed to be educating more and more people. Be an example, you know?

#19

Even less people know the difference between open source software and free/libre software.

Open source is better than closed for the user, yet gain in capital is still the driving value, not something "higher" like freedom, equality, pragmatism, health, or something similar. It is up to everyone to decide what their primary values are, and act accordingly, within their ethical ideology.

3 Likes
#20

I mean, like seriously, I have never used it.
What is there of special, aside of some common storage area for files?

Simple: just do not push the open source part at all.
Find whatever superior points whatever your alternative is has (cost? simplicity? privacy? supported platforms?), and push them.

And if slack still somehow has some objective merit, then fix the situation.

I mean, to be honest, even with all the bugginess W10 may be.. I really don't mind paying my fair amount of microsoft tax.
They may have done ■■■■ in the past, which they still didn't amended - still I don't think it was EEE that made XP had more intuitive and user-friendly interfaces than some linux distro even a couple of years ago. Also standardizing x86.

1 Like