Reasonable Expectations

Hi...

It may be wishful thinking, but I’m hoping that there are those in the Manjaro development culture that have some interest in the “big picture” of what might be called the “Heart” of their interest and support of Manjaro .

Although I have some specific complaints that can certainly be resolved, I am not a technical person but a technology user who just happens to have a limited technical background.

My most thorough familiarity of an operating systems as a user is Microsoft Windows I was a DOS user and a user of Windows 3.1 and have had a peripheral interest in Linux all the while…

The objection of most Windows users have to Linux is it almost invariably requires more use of the terminal and command line than they wish to deal with so I’m hoping to provide a Topic or place for some dialog on how the non-technical user can be included in the Heart of Manjaro…

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Hi @BillBoBeez and welcome to the Manjaro community.

I have moved your thread from Support to the Non-technical Questions category, which seems more fitting at least for the time being.

You might be interested in Manjaro Immutable, a new Manjaro version in the pipeline that aims to be more New User friendly and potentially lower the user-maintenance requirement inherent with most Arch based distributions.

Clearly the project is still in it’s infancy, but it shows a lot of promise.


As a new forum user, please take some time to familiarise yourself with Forum requirements; in particular, the many ways to use the forum to your benefit:

The Update Announcements should be checked frequently for important update related information.

These announcements contain a Known Issues and Solutions section and should generally be checked before posting a request for support.


Regards.

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I would like to provide an example of a problem that no doubt has some more technical details that anyone attempting to provide help, would like to have that is seem completely transparent to a windows user and would involve an attempt to provide that which is not immediately available…

There is distinct lack of robustness in Manjaro support for playing audio/music CDs.

As a minimum I would expect that such a player would provide a list of the track data in order for me to make a choice to play one or all with some standard playback controls…

As a side I have and use such program support in windows 11

However I have installed and tried several (possibly a dozen) different programs or apps in Manjaro that fail this simple requirement…

They often seem to intend to provide such support and then fail in the following ways…

  • They are unable to see the CD as containing music files…
  • They are unable to provide track data…
  • They may play but poorly, stuttering is a common problem…
  • Worst case they show no Audio playback capability at all…

It seems clear that these problems have to do with a lack of communication between software developers and Manjaro or that the expected dependencies do not exist or possible version conflicts…

I really love Manjaro since it has in most cases provided a alternative to Windows. Windows (basically a very good OS} seem to have lost its way in terms of interest in what users actually want and need…

Regards

Just a quick fly-by comment…

It would be nice if you would refer to Manjaro rather than ‘Manjero’. :slight_smile:


I am not intending to diminish your comments about music players, but available features do rely heavily on volunteers to keep them maintained.

There are probably some technical truths you are not aware of:

Where do you suppose that list comes from?

  • CD-Text – depends on physical device and media support for CD-Text, and whether a music Player is capable of reading CD-Text from the CD in the first place.
  • Track listing sourced from an online music database – has potential security implications. Some developers might ship their app without this enabled (Users might be expected to enable it via settings);

These are not the same thing at all. :eyes:


Overall, it is exceedingly difficult to respond to a question justified by or based on “it works in Windows”.

However, if you have an issue with a specific application, you are welcome to create a new Support thread to discuss only that application. Someone may be able to provide some guidance.

We have a reasonable expectation that you will provide actionable information for others to help effectively. The links given earlier will help you to navigate the forum and learn how to find and present any information you might be asked to provide.

System information is usually the first requirement of a Support request; usually given by the output of the following command:

inxi --admin --verbosity=8 --filter --no-host --width

I give this now so that you can copy it to your notes, as system info will be a common request in any new Support threads you might create.

Naturally, feel free to offer general opinions in the current thread.

Regards.

Edit:- Typo.

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This style of critism is highly unproductive. If you have a specific issue, open a support topic and provide details. The “big picture” only gets better by doing the small but specific improvement steps.

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Hi Bill!

I am at least as age-enhanced as you. I date back to CP/M and used some UNIX systems in the early and mid-80s.

Like you, I am new to Manjaro, although I come from other Linux distros. For me, Manjaro is a puzzle to solve as an alternative to crosswords. Something to work with to keep the mind sharp.

It is helpful to understand that Linux in general, and Manjaro in particular, is a process, not a product. It is the difference between preparing and cooking your own meal and going to McDonald’s. Yes, you are fed either way, but the experience is far different. (Even if you are preparing and cooking a burger.)

In your CD example, very few people around here would think to use their PC as a CD player. I use CDs only as a distribution medium. It goes in the CD drive one time, and one time only. It is ripped and stored on the PC, then the CD goes on a shelf never to be handled again. I have recently outgrown the 4TB SSD where I keep my music and replaced it with an 8TB one.

Once on the computer, I can play it any way I want and in any combination with other music. Better still, I can (and do) mess with it in any number of audio editing programs to modify it to my tastes and preferences. I do not blithely accept it as served. The tools available to do this, and the results achievable, are truly astonishing. As is the learning curve.

The end result is the same—music is emitted from my speakers—but the process is vastly different from simply shoving a disk in the drive and expecting the tunes to flow. It’s a process, not a product. Thus, reasonable expectations are different here.

I am hoping you’ll come to see this as I do—as problems to be solved, previously unavailable options to be explored, and a toolkit you can use towards those ends.

If however, you prefer a product to be used in blind obedience to the restrictive choices it offers you, then perhaps Manjaro is not for you. It is a Linux for tinkerers. That seems to be the expectation here.

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The last time I interacted with a music CD was to rip it to FLAC and then organise (Musicbrainz Picard) into my music folder with all the necessary metadata.

I believe this was approximately 11 years ago when I discovered one whilst cleaning out some ancient storage boxes.

Additionally, it is interesting to note that you can often obtain a BETTER QUALITY recording than your CD version simply by downloading.

I think that CD/DVD playback is a very niche concept today… and whilst I do still keep my CD/DVD drive in my ATX case, it has only been plugged in/active for about 3 hours in the last 15 years.

For distributing, I would also use a USB dongle. Before buying an Android phone, I would keep a dongle with my favourite tracks - I could plug them into the car, TV, or anyone else’s stereo and play my music anywhere. Now I have a phone - which is MUCH more convenient.

However, I would invite you to put an Audio CD into your drive, and have a go at playing it with Strawberry:

pamac install strawberry

Strawberry doesn’t have my favourite layout for a media player (I preferred Guayadeque - sadly not well maintained these days) but it’s certainly the most reliable.

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Btw it has been forked recently and have seen some development

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Perhaps a link and/or the name of the fork might be helpful. :slight_smile:

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The AUR pkgbuilds are updated to the fork since 2024/09

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Haha yes, I just came from there… I’m giving it a spin now.

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/guayadeque

It has many of the old issues, but at least running now. It’ll be interesting to see if it can be fixed; one huge problem for me is the disappearing menu… it quickly becomes unusable.

Hi to the Moderator…

I’m not surprised that you wish to only see that I am a technical ignoramus, but the post was to show how non-Linux or Windows users see their problems with Linux, regardless of the common adaptations that exist, that have no problem with gaining the knowledge or expertise to use Linux… The common Windows user is just a “user” and only wants to be a User and only wants things to work and couldn’t care less about why they don’t. If you have not been a Windows user then it might be difficult to appreciate how transparent the technical issues of downloading, installing and using a particular piece of software can be…

So you might say to such a person, well just stay away from Liunx…
But this attitude is the main reason Linux has not replaced Windows as the operating system of choice…

Regards

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Hi Wollie,

Appreciate your feed back…

But I am a little disappointed that big picture criticism is considered “unproductive”. Many would-be Linux users feel that the “devil is in the details” and therefore wish to avoid involvement and just be able to say that they have a problem that user documentation does not address and get some help or just try another program…

I love Manjaro and don’t plan to abandon it but it seems necessary for me to continue my use of Windows in order to do all the stuff that I do… If the Heart intent of Linux is to only provide a usefulness to those wishing to become Linux technicians then I have just misunderstood…

Regards

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As a Matter of interest, what stuff is that?

I would hardly call myself a Linux Tinkerer. I have never ‘Tinkered’ with Linux, my First Linux was Mandrake, back in 2000, I never used the command line for a long time. In fact it was only when I moved to Ubuntu, that I found I really needed to know how.

I use Linux for Recording my music, processing photos, and occasionally for making Videos, and writing code, mostly Python these days. But I don’t tinker, whatever that means.

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I distro hopped for a few years back when I realized the direction that Microsnot intended to go after Win7. I, too, felt it necessary to continue using Win7 to get my things done until one day I realized I wasn’t any closer to switching away from it. I wish I had read what @linux-aarhus had posted here at the point when I had pretty much decided on Manjaro. What he writes begins with “Switching OS is like getting a new car.” The full post is here –

Until you do the full switch, you will forever find yourself saying it is "necessary for me to continue my use of Windows in order to do all the stuff that I do… "

Make the switch, learn how to deal with the problems. You’ll find this forum to be a great help.

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I’m sorry - but when it comes to Windows I don’t think that the ‘technical issues’ of installing software are transparent. I’m sorry to admit that it’s WAY above my head (even after I had used Windows up to Vista for many years)… and so I have merely discovered the information to paste here:

WINDOWS software installation

  1. Downloading and running an executable (.exe) file: This is a common method, where the user downloads the software from the internet, saves it to their computer, and then runs the executable file to initiate the installation process.

It is not possible for the normal user to ‘understand’ this, they simply execute it in blind faith.

  1. Installing from a CD/DVD: This method involves inserting a CD or DVD containing the software into the computer’s optical drive, and then following the on-screen instructions to install the software.

  2. Microsoft Store app installation: a centralized platform for downloading and installing apps.

  3. Chocolatey package manager: Chocolatey is a command-line package manager that allows users to install software using PowerShell scripts or automated deployment tools.

  4. EaseUS Deploy Manager: This is a third-party deployment tool that enables users to deploy software images on multiple computers simultaneously, without having to download and install each software individually.

  5. Manual installation from a ZIP file: Some software may come in a compressed ZIP file, requiring users to extract the files and then manually install the software by running the executable or configuration files.

  6. Autorun installation: Some software CDs or DVDs may have autorun functionality, which automatically launches the installation process when the CD/DVD is inserted.

  7. Scripted installation: Advanced users or IT professionals may use scripting languages like PowerShell or batch files to automate the installation process, often as part of a larger deployment or imaging strategy.

  8. Group Policy-based installation: In enterprise environments, Group Policy can be used to deploy software to multiple computers simultaneously, often as part of a managed desktop or laptop imaging process.

Please explain to me, in detail (as if I’m 5) how this is in any way simpler than installing software in Linux…

LINUX software installation:

Specifically, for a complete NOOB, let’s just look at TWO methods:

  1. add/remove (opens software manager); type a word ‘strawberry’ and click to install.
  2. ctrlAltT pamac install strawberry
  3. Download and just RUN an appimage, or binary file (similar to Windows ‘portable apps’).
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If the devil is in the details, then it behooves the user having trouble to provide proper details and specifics when they need help. I note that you like “big picture” generalisations. However you can’t look at “Linux” as a single entity. Microsoft is an entity that makes Windows. But Linux isn’t. It’s a whole lot of different parts, packages, Linux kernels and GNU utilities, etc put together by people in different ways as they see fit.

That’s why you see the term “distributions” or “distros”. Different Linux distros – of which Manjaro is just one - are put together differently. And you have the commercial ones where you can get paid support, and those you don’t have to pay for that are run and maintained by volunteers.

No distro or OS, including Windows, is perfect. If you choose to use a non-commercial one and have problems, you have to provide details to get help. That’s how the distro will improve. It won’t improve, nor will you get help tailored to your problem, if you merely state that you have a problem with, say, playing a CD in Linux. I mean, which media player? What did you do or not do? What are your hardware specs, what CD did you try to play? Is it one of those with DRM or those that at one point weren’t really Audio CDs and thus didn’t carry that standard Audio CD logo [there were protected digital files, which I had problems with on my PC CD drive but not an external CD drive I bought], etc.

So don’t simply be “disappointed” and shake your head sadly [metaphorically]. Help make the distro you choose better by asking for help and giving specific details. If you think the manual wasn’t helpful, point out what it is lacking.

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While I’m a bit loathe to feed in to whatever this is

( Yes, its cunninghams law - the reference is to the intentional exploitation of the law for personal gain. Something like edu-trolling. )

I see ‘CDs no work’ so my first thought is the Archwiki, so I will leave this here.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Optical_disc_drive

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This has been going on for two days now, without the OP becoming concrete even once.
Where are the system details?
inxi -Farz
Which DE?
Which program was tested (a dozen of what - cookies, eggs, strawberries, clementines?)
Not one concrete specification, just general blah blah. Is this supposed to be an esoteric session?
For me it’s just trolling so far.

One thing you need to realize, the linux desktop is just a waste/by-product. No billion dollar giant behind it, showing you the way, fetching the coffee and cleaning the seat behind you and you can be sure that he is not doing it for free.
If you have no problem with microsoft or apple (e.g. because you are a US citizen and your privacy is not violated by the patriot act), then why all this?
Bottom line: To get something, sometimes you have to give something away.

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And i am a little disappointed of the big picture drawn.
For me the big picture looks like most people want to get rid of windows related problems or stop using it at all and are searching for alternatives. And then complain, that these alternatives differ from windows.
In theory I understand why one can be disappointed at this point.
But… It should be obvious that it has to be different.

Drawing a so called “big picture” here to teach the people how to do things right, which they are obviously doing wrong is imho arrogant.

You should think about the things you want. First if you want to switch or not.
You also can switch to mac OS or chrome OS oder go fully Android.
Here you can solve your technical problems with manjaro, one at a time.

I too switched from windows to manjaro. And I do not use windows anymore.
But I did start with the bare minimum I really needed for my private computing. Browser, Mail, Office and Printer. Everything else was not necessary to get my things done.
Though I used a lot more when working with windows.
It took some hours and I was working on Manjaro and had no windows anymore. Its been that easy. And to this point there was no commandline involved.
And over time I was able to get everything back I really missed from windows.
I’m gaming again and use a lot of tools for fun purposes.
And yes, I use the terminal very often. But I did it in windows, too. You cannot use windows full possibilities without using command line. Or crazy things like tweaking the registry.
So it’s okay for me to use a command to update and upgrade my manjaro system fast and safe. Or to configure something. Its much easier than tweaking windows registry or downloading and trying a bunch of windows-tools to find one which does the wanted configurations for me.

If there where minor or major problems I found the solutions or hints to the solution here by searching.

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