Some weeks ago, I decided to switch from Linux Mint to an Arch based system, because of the Rolling Release feature. I did so after I captured that Manjaro offers Pamac GUI that simplifies installation of apps by non-experienced users.
In general, I rate Manjaro as a good choice for novices, despite the Arch based core.
However…
When I want to install (e.g.) cheese (that was a few weeks ago), then PAMAC installs the flatpak based cheese - not the repository based app. Which of course costs extra SSD space. Because of this, I temporarily deselected third party apps. I think that the user should be shown the choice between repository or flatpak-based apps. Or: the system itself prioritizes the repository-based app if its version is not older.
I also observed that in the case of intended installation of any app, Pamac will automatically update the system without a possibility to deselect this. That’s quit annoying, because (in two or three instances up to now) this may result in approx. 900 MB downloaded from the internet. Well, I couldn’t have the time for that (e.g. because of an appointment), or I simply want to postpon a system update later. Because of this, I’m using pacman to install apps to avoid a time consuming surprise.
Well, I hope that these observations are useful for the development team.
Thats not how it works.
Furthermore extra plugins like SNAP and Flatpak are presented in their own tabs, separated from the repository packages. See below**
The “Third Party” settings section has options for AUR, Flatpak, or SNAP, depending on the presence of the plugins.
As above - the user would have to actively choose a flatpak app - installing cheese through pamac would provide the repository application.
Partial upgrades are not supported and equal to broken.
** - Reference images
Regular:
After installing and enabling enabling flatpak:
Selecting the flatpak tab - note a different list (somewhat humorously pamac seems to not even be able to find a cheese flatpak):
Currently, there are two selections you can do unter “third party vendors” (in Pamac settings - one for AUR and one for Flatpak).
I did a test by removing chees via pacman -Ru, and installing via Pamac indeed does the repository version. Perhaps an improvement has been implemented in the code these past weeks.
Partial upgrades are not supported and equal to broken.
If that would be true, It would also be a failure to install a single app via pacman.
I’m afraid I cannot really comment on that because I only ever use pamac in its CLI form, and only as an AUR helper. I update my system and install software from the repos using pacman.
The behavior as described here is intentional and required. Considering the tight integration of all components — especially so in a rolling-release distribution — installing an application in a non-up-to-date system would result in anything from mild breakage to total failure. We call this a partial-update scenario, and in such cases, we cannot offer any support.
Maybe you do not have libpamac-snap-plugin, just like the first image is without libpamac-flatpak-plugin.
(Which is fine … SNAPs are awful)
Not that I know of.
Pamac has been pretty static recently, especially in terms of the broad strokes.
And the last Stable Branch update was a few weeks ago too.
Its still true. pacman just doesnt force-hand-hold as much as pamac.
And its probably a tad circumstantial.
If you use pacman -S package then if the current (stale) version of the package its looking for happens to still be available then it will install fine. But if its been long enough that package-1.0 its looking for cannot be found at the mirror then no installation can take place.
If you then did pacman -Sy package that would ensure you got the package that is available at the mirror, but no other packages would be upgraded - resulting in a partial upgrade with any number of issues. The package you have installed and any new dependencies are installed as their current updated versions while all other system packages and libraries are out of date.
Performing pacman -Syu package syncs and upgrades all system packages while installing the new package … free of any partial-upgrade issues … but of course requiring the sync/upgrade.
… and I’m afraid that I probably did not look very well. When I repeat the installation of cheese, then I see two entries as a result in the Pamac search result list, when I enter the search term “camera” (that could have been the way I did it). Then I saw the cheese entry with the green Icon, saw 9.7 MB (which does not look like a flatpak size), and I will have not seen the grey text “Flatpak (flathub)”. That explains how I encountered the situation a few weeks ago. Having said this: it would be better when the two entries would be listed after each another (e.g. alphabetically).
For example Cameractrlsdo appear just after another.
EDIT (addition): I think that it is important that the GUI version of Pamac is really user friendly because of the intention to attract also novices to Manjaro (I’m not a novice, but my wife).
Thanks for this - I’ll think about it and do my own considerations related to Pamac GUI!
There has been some debate recently about the choice for novices to be frank, mostly the one thing I would advise is that you disable AUR updates in Pamac-GUI.
However, my top option is listed as the Manjaro (Extra) Official Repository and it is very clearly marked:
Interestingly, I don’t actually see the flatpak in this view (which is disappointing).
Aha, so let this be a warning - pamac is not as robust as one would hope.
I think Manjaro is a little more accessible; I rate Linux Mint as a superb, stable, and clean start for Novices. Add to that Pop, Zorin, maybe some others for a more pure GUI experience.
However, as already stated, when applications do appear in Pamac-GUI they are very clearly labelled.
Overall, my recommendation is to prefer the terminal and to use different tools for the job - this is especially the case when you know what you want. As I discovered one more time here - Pamac-GUI didn’t actually present me with the Flatpak for Cheese - which is interesting and one reason I don’t use it as my primary source.
Notice that you can’t do partial upgrades - I think it is more possible to behave this way with Linux Mint (a STABLE operating system - which doesn’t change) but not with a ROLLING system, due to it’s unstable nature it must be kept fully up to date.
Well, understood. Compared to debian’s apt install there is more fine grain if a package shall be installed. I now see that this makes also a difference related to release-based architectures. In the latter, you’d install a version of a package with dependencies that fit with the installed release. In the Arch case one can install a package without an upgrade that follows, if dependencies would fit.
Related to Pamac GUI: I think that not only novices would appreciate it if the GUI simply warns that an install would imply downloads up to XXX MB, followed by extra packages install time (with “proceed/cancel” user input, or even the option to install a flatpak version, associated with a small pop up info window).
Hey, you’re right. Just another verification. It is true if you filter using the term “cheese”. But if the term “camera” is used, the result is like this:
Well, I chose to install Manjaro on my wife’s new laptop in order to have “no hassle” usability without system upgrades every few years. Crucial was this sentence on the Manjaro Distrowatch page:
Key features include intuitive installation process
This is true as I could experience while doing the install. Every Windows user could install Manjaro without any problems.
Anywhere else I found that Pamac is a specific Manjaro GUI tool that eases app installation. Well, such sort of GUI tool is standard on most Ubuntu/Debian-based systems, while arch (according to my knowledge state) is heavily dependent on the command line.
To be honest: this install serves also as a test platform for myself. I’m still hesitating if I should (professionally) switch over to Arch, for one reason: the vast standard that .deb-packages prove to be. Example: you can easily install Picoscope software on Ubuntu- or Debian-based systems, and such operations are mostly possible by means of PPAs. Arch offers AUR. It’s just another way of installing ‘non-standard’ software.
Regarding Linux Mint:
For Windows users, Mint is very okay, but for those without Windows experience (e.g. my wife), GNOME is clearly better because of its concept, its paradigm… That was another reason to install Manjaro, while I would install KDE Plasma (abandoned in Mint offerings).
Okay, in some instances, that’s true. But in general, repo based apps are the preferred way to install. All the other options represent more or less self contained apps without dependencies, because used libs are part of the app build. I’m purely acting from this generic perspective. In the cheese example you’re right that the impact on SSD is quite limited.
Unfortunately many users don’t appreciate that a rolling release loses the “hassle” of system upgrade every few years but in exchange, it gains the “hassle” of having large full upgrades EVERY upgrade.
“Rolling” means the whole system, every part of it, every library or dependency, is moving forward all the time. You need to do full upgrades and not partial upgrades to keep everything in step with each other. That’s the price of having fresh up to date packages all the time without needing to reinstall or doing a system upgrade every few years.
And it is precisely the need for the pamac GUI to be user friendly for newcomers, that it initiates a full upgrade every time you try to install just one or a few packages. Newcomers don’t understand the need to keep everything updated together in a rolling distro, so the GUI “insists” on it.
Just found this here: How often should you update Arch Linux? - Josh Sherman
Several update intervals are discussed. I’d opt for monthly updates (at least). For me that’d be okay, provided that I decide: when an upgrade is flagged, then to carry this out at a time where it fits for me. Finally it will turn out to be in favour or not in favour to debian-based systems and ‘their’ risk of full distribution upgrade (next release) trouble (Murphy’s law).
Disadvantage of rolling releases (I’m getting aware now): relatively little chance to install a package/an app without the system going to immediately execute a full upgrade. However, its probability would depend on the maintainer’s upgrade rate policy. Also whether full upgrades are flagged in more or less random intervals or fixed intervals (weekly, monthly…).
Just another word to upgrade policy. I hate the standard habit of Windows to surprise the user with the following message upon doing a shutdown:
The system will be updated now. Don’t switch off this computer (not exactly quoted)
I want to go home. Not wait!
A few months ago, I talked with an elder Windows 11 user who told to hate this (and other stuff), and after I summed up the many benefits of Linux, she was interested. Well that’s also what I have in mind during my current excursions. As a Windows experienced user, I’d prepare a system or live session with KDE Desktop, so that she could see the benefits.
for another ‘hassle’ expected of the user when you run an arch-based rolling distro, namely dealing with pacnew files and system maintenance in general.
But as to when to update, the stable branch of Manjaro does not release updates whenever they come in.
Essentially the devs turn off the Stable repo “tap” most of the time. Bug reports are filed in the Testing/Unstable branches for updates that come in. Every 3 to 6 weeks, the devs turn the tap back on in Stable and release a huge pack of updates into the Stable repo before shutting the tap again.
For newer users, wait a few days before upgrading, and always read posts 1 and 2 of the update announcement thread for a particular update. That’s where potential issues and solutions are listed.
There are pros and cons to having
(1) a smaller number of updates trickle in every few hours or days, which happens with normal Arch or Manjaro Unstable/testing branch where you have to handle your own problem solving but you can easily identify the problem package(s) out of the fewer updates,
versus
(2) having updates be withheld for a few weeks while the devs try to iron out any problems, but then users face a deluge of updates at one time.
If you have slow download speeds or a monthly download size limit, the second approach [ie Manjaro stable] might be a problem.
How did you manage that? I have Flatpak and AUR enable in Pamac, and when I, just now, attempted to install Cheese, I was offered the ‘Official Repository (extra)’ version, the first option, or an ‘AUR’ version.
But they were clearly labelled as Official Repository and AUR, so I could not mistakenly select the wrong one.
Some special skills are required - first of all, if you search for che up to chees you’ll see them all. But if you search cheese then the flatpak will disappear!!!
But sure, when you already decided to install from repos, I’m not sure why you’d bother going to the GUI (even less inviting after this interesting search quirk) and, in your case, the Respoitory - evidently a new source is emerging.
I guess typing is difficult down-under 'cos you’re all upside down.
