Unpaid Volunteers burn out fast. Paid employees not so much.
Too many burned out Volunteers and the product quality will slip, and the product will eventually fail.
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As I said the Telemetry puts them ahead of the game, so this potential issue might never come up. Personally I would rather not have the device fail like that, and then have to deal with fixing it.
Total valid point, its not that i dont get it… but its still money.
So this Telemetry alone, can’t improve Manjaro… but the money does to pay employees.
So the end goal from this conversation, Manjaro need more money because of our greedy community (unspoken truth?) don’t want to donate money. 
Which was my standpoint, that i posted far above in this Topic already.
There are some people in this community, I know for certain cannot afford to donate money.
But that aside, the donation thing is a bit like the telemetry thing. There are those who won’t donate for reasons. Those that don’t make the effort, and those that absolutely do.
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@tracyanne
Did you just got promoted to Moderation?
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Manjaro is not the only one thinking of Opt-Out metrics. Also Fedora did: F42 Change Proposal: Opt-In Metrics for Fedora Workstation (system-wide) - Fedora Discussion.
Intel’s ClearLinux also has a telemetry function: Telemetrics — Documentation for Clear Linux* project
Doing Metrics is always a thing which should be done right. However, it always will lead to a discussion with people who are security oriented, aim for a low digital footprint or other reasons involved.
You can find discussions like this:
- > I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux. I... | Hacker News
- What do you think of telemetry? - Questions - Privacy Guides Community
So when we launch telemetry on Manjaro it will be clearly communicated!
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https://www.clearlinux.org/clear-linux-documentation/guides/clear/telemetrics.html
On the client side, the main decisions **after** installation and **enabling telemetry** involve what to do with the record data generated by the probes.
It’s OPT-IN.
Some might have also missed gnome-info-collect, which was launched 2022 by GNOME developers: Help improve GNOME! - Fedora Magazine and its results: gnome-info-collect: What we learned – Form and Function
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I voted for opt-in (thats me), but why all this fuzz, as long as you have a choice.
Much more important is what happens with your data. Will companies, manjaro is allied with, see raw data or only a anonimized essence of data. How save is the host, etc. …
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It’s more about what data is sent and how. There is nothing in there that I can see which is intrinsically personally-identifiable, without the likes of Google Analytics etc. which IMHO is what people should be concerned about.
There are ways to mitigate the latter, but how many people actually bother — or just carry on using it, regardless.
I am no expert on scripts but to my eyes there is nothing to worry about; I even made a small change so it could reflect a more accurate install date. If I can do it … 
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This is something I find very strange.
Apple has made an extremely successful business by matching it’s hardware and software - and the overall feeling is that, whatever hardware you buy, it will generally run super smoothly and reliably.
Certainly with iOS this has been my experience.
This comes from having knowledge.
If I asked you to write me a microkernel and operating system for my ‘phone’, wouldn’t your first questions be ‘32 or 64 bit? how much RAM? what GFX, what CPU?’
Despite this already having been answered by @romangg that it will help with targeting resources and development of Manjaro… with IMPERSONAL statistics… the negative comments still persist.
Perhaps a counter-question:
- Why does it bother you that developers sometimes feel they might wish to know more about the deployments that they’re developing for?
- What cost to you is involved with the sharing some details about your deployment.
- What possible risk can you imagine?
This puts me in mind of a github comment I made - quite harshly criticising a new software for (despite it’s clean approach) completely omitting some very obvious features present in X and Y softwares.
The developer was genuinely shocked - he had never seen X and Y softwares and totally agreed, the features were implemented within 24 hours.
I think this MORE than answers that question/issue.
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My further thoughts on this: I want a window company to make some uPVC windows for my house. But, I won’t tell them what size the windows need to be, or anything about the structure so they might know what type of fixings are needed. Then follows a tirade of complaints when it doesn’t fit.
Note: I’ve actually dealt with uPVC makers who don’t take expansion and other tolerances into account.
If you are willing to voluntarily offer some information, you might get a better bit of code in return. But this needed feedback will indeed be voluntary, if what I’ve read here is anything to go by.
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What exactly is being developed by Manjaro? The only thing they can show is pamac and we all know how that one works. What else? Everything is being developed upstream and (vast majority) is being packaged by Arch.
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I have donated.
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It is difficult to understand. If I were to paraphrase the apparent stance (repeated a number of times) it would reduce to something like:
“Helping the Manjaro development team to make informed choices is not good for Manjaro users, because users don’t care”.
Apart from it being an unsubstatiated generalism, there is also the white elephant in the room; that any improvement to Manjaro (in whatever form it may take) ultimately benefits Users, whether any particular User cares or not.
No question. In fact, having a limited walled garden of hardware options also goes a long way toward enhancing that reliability. Those who use Apple product actively support that perceived reliability by paying often excessive prices.
I won’t begin to speculate as to the amount of telemetry associated with Apple goodwill over the years; suffice to say it has long been a part of their marketing machine.
Most dissenting commentry in this thread regarding Manjaro and telemetry, seems to revolve around the possibility of telemetry being enabled by default.
The results of the Poll (so far) indicate an overwhelming preference to avoid the opt-out scenario with telemetry already running in a new installation, and choose to opt-in instead.
So, this gives an indicator that some are not happy with the perceived opt-out scenario, and this result will no doubt influence Manjaro (proper) to come up with another approach.
I trust that Manjaro will find a fair compromise at least amenable to the majority of Manjaro users; and that it will continue being transparent with all proposals and/or decisions made before MDD is actually rolled out.
This was a simple comment from @philm among many that clearly states the intention of continued openness.
It seems to me that arguing semantics over things that have already been discussed, heard and addressed is a huge waste of bandwidth.
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This is something I find very strange.
You can find this how ever you want tbh. It does not change the current state of things.
If I asked you to write me a microkernel and operating system for my ‘phone’, wouldn’t your first questions be ‘32 or 64 bit? how much RAM? what GFX, what CPU?’
A. Unrelated to the topic. I would not getting this data from telemetry since I wouldn’t have a kernel or OS where I can add telemetry yet but by inquiring you directly. This has nothing to do with the kind of statistical data you get from telemetry an is completely besides the topic as you obviously need to know the platform you want to develop your OS or even just kernel for.
B. Once again. Why are you trying to convince me? I am not the issue here. I am telling you what problem you are facing here, indicated by the general user behaviour in regards to telemetry. If. promted. and. in. reasonable. limits. I. usually. activate. basic. telemetry.
You can try to throw made up off topic scenarios my way all day long. This will help you nothing with your problem. If the user would see the results of providing this data as a goodie or a sufficient incentive, we would not have this discussion in the first place.
Helping the Manjaro development team to make informed choices is not good for Manjaro users, because users don’t care”.
Nope, this is NOT my stance.
Helping the development team to make informed decicions is not a sufficient incentive for most users by itself because they don’t care about how development works or what developers need to make informed decisions and improve their product.
Is more like it.
The poll can only be interpreted as slightly suggestive, since it’s not a truly randomized poll - this poll is of people who 1. saw that there is a poll, 2. interested enough to vote, 3. some votes may not even be real Manjaro users since anyone can make a forum account.
But we do know there are some users who feel entitled to have everything their way from open-source devs whilst not even giving anything back. Furthermore they carry on using all sorts of other software/hardware/websites that collect anonymous and non-anonymous data, but somehow this one project they scream about, I can’t help but roll my eyes at them.
Just wanted to add, if this poll was open only to those who actually have Manjaro installed (like the Steam survey), then it would carry a lot more weight - at least to me.
And another thing, to those who say “just because everyone else is doing it, doesn’t mean Manjaro should”, I say maybe they should, maybe everyone else is doing it because it provides useful insights and information, why should Manjaro be in the dark regarding that info?
As long as a reasonable sincere attempt of what’s being shared is anonymous and not combined with other info that can be used to de-anonymize, info stored for a very short time, and there is an opt-out option, this is completely acceptable to me.
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The LOGIC here is incredible… and a complete waste of Bandwidth.
You’re saying you won’t get your information by telemetry, but by asking me directly.
This is EXACTLY what is being discussed here.
- Manjaro: Please, just help us out with a few details - just ‘allow’ this to happen.
- User: No, I won’t let you get any information.
Yet you say Manjaro will now have to ask every user individually - isn’t this the whole point of ‘Please opt in to give us some information’.
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The LOGIC here is incredible… and a complete waste of Bandwidth.
Quit the insults.
You’re saying you won’t get your information by telemetry, but by asking me directly.
An inquiry prior to the development of a product to evaluate your target platform is something fundamentally different to getting user statistics and data to find a direction or focus points for an ongoing development of an existing product down the line.
This is EXACTLY what is being discussed here.
Manjaro: Please, just help us out with a few details - just ‘allow’ this to happen.
User: No, I won’t let you get any information.
You prior scenario is fundamentally different to what you state here. And no. The discussion you chimed into was about why people don’t seem to want to opt into telemetry since the participation for opt in telemetry usually is lower than for opt out telemetry for instance. If you would develop a kernel you would want to know xyz is very much off topic to that discussion.
The general thread is about opt in vs opt out. (But took a turn a while ago)
Yet you say Manjaro will now have to ask every user individually
Pretty much my stance on the topic of opt in vs opt out.
…isn’t this the whole point of ‘Please opt in to give us some information’.
You are mixing up to completely different arguments here.
You should probably reread what I said a bit more carefully, but to give you a tldr on what I basically said overall:
- I prefer opt in since it requires you, to honor the users consent.
- If telemetry is opt in, I’ll usually enable it
- Opt in is a viable solution as long as you find a way to get users to engage with your telemetry tool (example valve)
- “It helps the developer to do xyz” is not a sufficient incentive for most users since it seems like most users don’t care much about the development process of a product, but expect improvements anyway. (See KDE opt in telemetry as an example)
These 4 points are the basic points I made over this thread. They are not necessarly related.
Points that I did not make but that some people try to argue here with me are:
- Manjaro wants to collect personal data
- Manjaros’ wish to collect telemetry is somehow unreasonable
- Telemetry generally is bad
- Telemetry is useless
I said neither of those things.
A Full Operating System. which includes Compiling the kernel, with modules they believe are necessary for the hardware the OS is deployed on. Generally making choices about Software and Configurations. Adding Themes etc to give the OS a professional and Project specific Look and feel.
Sharing issues back upstream, so that upstream projects can improve, which has the knock on effect of improving Manjaro.
I’m sure there is a lot more, but I’ve never actually built a Distro.
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