Why do people want Linux to behave like other systems?

Security and privacy concerns over snap? Yep, there is some interesting reading here

Existing installations would continue as they are, snaps are not being forced on all of us thankfully.

From everything I have read and heard Phil say so far, the intention is to offer both delivery options. A new modular approach on one set of ISO and the 'traditional' approach with packages from repositories on the other set.

appimage and flatpak are also supported by bauh, so it's entirely possible for users to pick and choose but what about the manjaro packages? I'm guessing they would be snaps since the guys have been to snap summit and also working with a Canonical Employee on this.

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So it's kind of like what Fedora is doing, offering both the traditional workstation and silverblue, which uses flatpak over dnf.

Cool. I'll stick to traditional Manjaro. Also, another benefit of flatpak over snap is that you're not locked into a single source. Anyone can make flatpaks and see what's in them. With snap there's the snap store and that's it. Anyhow, I think I'm satisfied with this thread. If any admins want to close it, feel free. If not, enjoy the discussion, folks!

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Interesting conversation, although I have some doubts about it.

Basically they appeared to work-around the limitations of fixed releases, aka having old libraries and app versions.

But I don't see how that could benefit a rolling release like Arch and derivatives. Simply put these operating systems have already overcome these problems by making the monolith the state of the art.

Also having the apps in a container looks good for something like a mobile phone, but I wonder if that isn't too limiting for desktop applications. It smells like over-engineering to me having to declare for each app how those containers can access the outer world.

Or simpler than that Canonical came with the idea of Snaps in a hope of becoming Android, and have plenty of binary only apps around.

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I think that most of the time, if some user complains about Linux not behaving like other operating systems, it comes down for lack of proper communication beforehand.

You shall tell people that Linux, even being less fritz and more capable, it is completely different. That at first they won't know how to do certain things, but when they discover how to do them they will realize that it's easier than before.

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Only problem what Linux has is advanced programs like video editing or photo editing, music creating. People do not need/want to use over complicated settings. It would be good if some Linux developers try to use those programs and see how easy they work. Shotwell is close, some other programs too but they are close for decades. Mobile apps are more advanced then Linux apps and they exist only for a few years. Anyway I like it I use Linux for what is capable and for other I use other systems.

That's why we need to make the Day of the Desktop happen.

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Is this intended as an option, or the future of Manjaro?

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That makes all the difference. :slight_smile:

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Yup. Every so often I revisit Windows, just to remind myself how lucky I am because...I run Arch. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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Love Manjaro and linux in general. I love the flexability. programs to download from manjaro vetted source, not open to malware. Please don't sell out to become like windows. I like manjaro because its differant and so cool, it could stop the glaciers melting. :cold_face:

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Phil, I love Manjaro, but if the above is not an opt-in choice and will become the default way that Manjaro is going to be installed and maintained from here on, then I'm afraid my so far very sweet stint with Manjaro is doomed to end prematurely, and then I'm going to have to start looking for another distribution.

I love Manjaro because of what it is now, but ─ no disrespect intended ─ if I wanted Ubuntu, then I would have installed Ubuntu, not Manjaro.

Please do not force all of us to use Snap or FlatPak. :worried:

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Manjaro will still need the test users (not test rabits), so read the second paragraph

@philm, a differentiation in name for the two Manjaro distros might make sense if the idea becomes reality. Kind of Manjaro "On The Rocks":mountain_snow: or Manjaro "On Ice":ice_skate: , Manjaro Convinience (Food):pizza: , Manjaro Frozen ("Let it go, let it go-oh!":snowflake::snowman: ). Or o boring name like Manjaro Consumer edition (because it's not for Enterprise). You can start a contest topic for the best name - Manjaro Bladebook being the prize for the winner. :wink: :rofl:

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Stop that you evil man. My neighbor's 8 year-old daughter listens to that dang song ALL DAY LONG at high volume.

Shaken or stirred?

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I guess the future is exactly this. Make it more user friendly, pack lots of features for the average user.
Opt in - opt out does not make sense for an audience that cannot distinguish snap, flatpak or repo.
The remaining experienced users who may not like the implementations to begin with will be used as test users to ensure everything goes smoothly.
Nothing wrong with this, just pointing out the target market for Manjaro.

That's why I went to Arch since I prefer the KISS philosophy.

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Well, you can call me dense if you like, but that second paragraph neither confirms nor denies that the current way of installing applications would be going the way of the dodo. What @philm wrote in that second paragraph talks of the base system and the desktop environment only.

Also, your own wording as quoted above suggests that those who prefer the current maintenance model would have to switch from the Stable branch to the Testing branch, which I also don't find particularly reassuring. So now we already have two unclear statements to muddle the waters instead of one.

Manjaro as it currently exists is an excellent distribution that offers something for everyone's tastes. However, if the course of the entire distribution is going to shift away from what Manjaro is currently offering, then I'm afraid I ─ and many others with me ─ will be looking for another distribution that offers what Manjaro is currently offering but is planning to do away with in order to become a rolling-release version of Ubuntu. (This is not a threat, by the way. It is however something to seriously consider.)

There's a reason why we chose Manjaro in the first place. Please don't take away that reason. Because if you do, then yes, you'll be winning a lot of former Windows users, but at the same time, you'll be driving away your more seasoned GNU/Linux users.

When @philm made the announcement of the Manjaro GmbH, many users already left in anger without asking questions, while others ─ myself included ─ stood up for @philm and defended his decision, exactly because promises were made that the interests of the GmbH would not influence the development of the distribution.

If those promises have now suddenly become an illusion, then please let us, the community, know now.

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Yup, I knew about Linux but only tried it for the first time around 2013 I think.

All the flavors I tried was Ubuntu but since I also play games, it just want a option until last year.

Manjaro was the distro I needed. Good solid base package, rolling release and access to the AUR. That + all the game stuff happening made it possible for me to finally switch.

And also Windows 10 being a terrible OS also helped make the switch permanent.

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The current release model will still exist as we need it for the Manjaro Solid distribution. So depending on the chosen ISO you either have an ALPM based Manjaro distribution with all the options you know since 2012 or you use the new Manjaro Solid ISOs to go more Android-like in regard of package management.

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100% agree, but to understand the why...

  • People like yourself who "get it" are the vast minority, I would say someplace in the 0-5% of all computer users (including grandma, millennial Jack, Bob the accountant, men with beards or people with beards to be inclusive, etc.). The majority are people who think a computer is a computer and all computer are inherently the same. As such they should and "do" all act the same, good and bad.
  • People generally hate change, even if it for the better. You see it all the time...people in bad jobs that will complain but not look for a new job, people in bad relationships, even people using Windows!
  • When you don't know any better you cant be any better.
  • More narrow, those coming to Linux are not always doing it for the "right" reasons. Very few actually know the differences and how could they? If they are not already using Linux then they cant really have a great understanding of it.

So people (using the generalization 'people' for the majority, aka not us) often come to Linux not for some moral, social or pragmatic reason but because their nephew cant stop saying "BTW I use Arch" at holiday get together's or because the IT guy at their work with the 9 foot beard hates MS more than anything.

In any case, a big part of the reason people want new stuff to be similar to old stuff is to bridge the gap. Its a big leap to go from known to unknown. Most people are "scared" enough of their computer with the understanding (no matter how limited) that they already have, let alone changing things to the point they know nothing.

Some learn about alternatives by asking these sort of things ("O, I actually have options for every little thing I want to change?!?!?") as they just go on the assumption after 20 years of MS that they have to use it a certain way. Others are just that type of person...they dont want to learn they expect someone else to do it for them...this type wont be around long so dont worry about them lol.

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Thank you for clarifying, Phil. Things do sound much better when the information is complete. :wink:

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I don't know anything.

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