I for one need proprietary software to make my laptop work, the libre options are crap (half my laptop doesn't work on 100% libre) but as for programs themselves, not everyone is willing to forgo a lot of stuff (either for school, work or personal interest) that doesn't have good libre options.Having a option for those people is a good thing. Also you can uninstall snap and flatpak or use a community edition. Forcing everyone to pick either libre or proprietary will only end badly but having options for both is a nice middle ground
Went well, thanks, see specs:
System: Host: HP Kernel: 5.2.3-1-MANJARO x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 9.1.0 Desktop: Xfce 4.13.5git-645f19 Distro: Manjaro Linux Machine: Type: Desktop System: Hewlett-Packard product: HP EliteDesk 705 G1 SFF v: N/A serial: <filter> Mobo: Hewlett-Packard model: 2215 serial: <filter> UEFI: Hewlett-Packard v: L06 v02.30 date: 03/22/2018 Battery: Device-1: hidpp_battery_0 model: Logitech M570 charge: 95% status: Discharging CPU: Topology: Dual Core model: AMD A6 PRO-7400B R5 6 Compute Cores 2C+4G bits: 64 type: MCP arch: Steamroller rev: 1 L2 cache: 1024 KiB flags: avx lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 sse4a ssse3 bogomips: 13981 Speed: 1397 MHz min/max: 1400/3500 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1456 2: 1557 Graphics: Device-1: AMD Kaveri [Radeon R5 Graphics] vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: radeon v: kernel bus ID: 00:01.0 Device-2: NVIDIA GK208 [GeForce GT 720] vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: nvidia v: 430.26 bus ID: 01:00.0 Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.5 driver: nvidia resolution: 1920x1080~60Hz OpenGL: renderer: GeForce GT 720/PCIe/SSE2 v: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 430.26 direct render: Yes Audio: Device-1: AMD Kaveri HDMI/DP Audio vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus ID: 00:01.1 Device-2: AMD FCH Azalia vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus ID: 00:14.2 Device-3: NVIDIA GK208 HDMI/DP Audio vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus ID: 01:00.1 Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.2.3-1-MANJARO Network: Device-1: Broadcom and subsidiaries NetXtreme BCM5762 Gigabit Ethernet PCIe vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: tg3 v: 3.137 port: e000 bus ID: 04:00.0 IF: enp4s0 state: down mac: <filter> Device-2: Ralink MT7601U Wireless Adapter type: USB driver: mt7601u bus ID: 6-1:2 IF: wlp0s19f2u1 state: up mac: <filter> Drives: Local Storage: total: 2.73 TiB used: 25.92 GiB (0.9%) ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Seagate model: ST2000VM002-9UY166 size: 1.82 TiB ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Western Digital model: WD10EZEX-08M2NA0 size: 931.51 GiB Partition: ID-1: / size: 1.77 TiB used: 25.87 GiB (1.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 ID-2: swap-1 size: 16.00 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda3 Sensors: System Temperatures: cpu: 9.1 C mobo: N/A Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A GPU: device: nvidia screen: :0.0 temp: 53 C fan: 28% device: radeon temp: 12 C Info: Processes: 151 Uptime: 10m Memory: 14.72 GiB used: 753.5 MiB (5.0%) Init: systemd Compilers: gcc: 9.1.0 Shell: bash v: 5.0.7 inxi: 3.0.35
Exactly, forcing proprietary crap like snap and being excited about shipping more proprietary software isn't right. By all means have the option to install snap from the repos, but shipping snap by default is not a good idea. Flatpak is more libre, better for privacy. Snap isn't even fully libre. It's controlled by one company and it's not decentralised, you can't have your repos or hosting. Whereas with flatpak people or even manjaro can roll their repos or they can choose not to and just use the official flathub repos. More to the fact that flatpak gives you more freedom, more choices.
On the hompeage of manjaro, we see mentions of open source and linux and stuff. Forcing snap is a horrible idea which goes against the ethos of free as in freedom.
And if the manjaro team does want to make our lives easier along with theirs, maybe they could just have the option letting users install snap or flatpak or guix or whatever they want. And frankly, this advertisement for snap in every announcement post is just obscene.
Frankly, this moaning about snaps in every announcement is just annoying. You people choose distro which has nvidia driver shipped by default and criticise it for having easy access to snaps right? Don't you feel there's a lack of logic in your opinion?
But what we do not see is any kind of crazy Stallman-like statements. You seem to misunderstand what Manjaro is.
Reminder: uninstalling snapd makes your PC snap-free you know right.
This is of course understandable, proprietary Firmware is often a problem.
And yes, uninstalling things like snap gets rid of them of course.
I just wanted to remind everyone that we should remind ourselves of what GNU/Linux stands for instead of encouraging Software companies to ship proprietary software as it's so easy nowadays with things like snap (or flatpak). Everybody has choices, yes, but the incentives here are ... debatable.
I just installed fpakman and it gives me the option to "upgrade all checked applications":
GNOME Application Platform version 3.26,
Intel VAAPI Driver.
I never used flatpak or snap.
My question is if I upgrade this will not conflict with packages installed by Pamac? It's OK to do the upgrade via fpakman?
Others questions are: Why I could not check Apps in the main window? Why if I do a search I found no results?
As I understand it, those files it's offering to upgrade only flatpaks and snaps pull from. It's totally separate from anything else you install through whatever package manager you use.
In other words, it's only upgrading files required by flatpak and snap. It's not upgrading anything else on your system or any of the files installed by pamac.
There's a thread for
fpakman if you'd like to ask for help.
I never mentioned stuff like drivers and firmware blobs. I am not talking about nvidia drivers or broadcom's wifi drivers. I am talking about the non required forcing of not legitimate proprietary crap like snap. I personally do use spotify and discord. As much as I hate non free stuff. But sometimes you have to, right? But I choose to install it. And I know what data they take from me. I allow it to. Preinstalling snap is what I am complaining against.
Why should I have to uninstall something which is proprietary, which isn't required for proper functioning like firmware drivers and moreover which is disrespectful to my privacy and goes against the whole idea of what Linux is.
Of course I can uninstall snap, but why should I have to? If someone wants to install spotify's snap, by all means a good distro should provide them easy access to it. It should be an informed choice, while being aware of the alternatives and the repercussions.
I would still have ranted if they were shipping flatpaks by default, but my distaste would be very less, because flatpak is libre, decentralised, free to play, host and hack on. Flatpak is community based, just like Manjaro. And unlike canonical's snap.
And the moaning you mention happens maybe because a place called announcements, shouldn't have had this distasteful garbage advertising in the first place
TLDR: Snaps aren't essential like nvidia drivers. They are anti privacy, centralised and not libre. I shouldn't have to remove non essential, data grabbing proprietary crap. I should be able to install it if I choose to. And spamming the top of every announcement thread with advertisements is just distasteful
I just can't stand the Titus guy from the video.
This "argument" can also be reverted it. Of course I can install snap, but why should I have to if I can have it already working out of the box? If someone doesn't want to use it they can just uninstall it.
People seem to forget that an OS is just a tool. Most people want to do the most they can with that tool.
I didn't came to Manjaro because I had a ideology problem with Windows 10. I came because as an OS it was leaving me dissatisfied, with daily problems not allowing me to do my work.
What I want in a OS is to work and provide me with easy options to do what I want. You can't go much easier than just opening Discover or this new fpakman and simply installing spotify, or discord, or any other proprietary software that you want to use.
If you want to go all stallman Manjaro simply isn't the distro to do it, it already comes with Steam and Microsoft Office Online pre-installed, for example. Just go use Debian or Arch, you won't have this problem.
Of course I can install snap, but why should I have to if I can have it already working out of the box?
That's because there's a better more privacy friendly and more community oriented alternative. And by that logic, we should ship every single mainstream app in the repos. Because being able to uninstall something isn't the answer. If you really want me to lay it out. Enabling it by default will lead to more complications. It's creating all these loop devices which make management harder. My point is simple that people shouldn't have to look around to remove bloatware. An OS should provide basic necessities like an office suite and a media player and what not. Shipping non private, centralised crap by default and then justifying it by saying you can remove it isn't the right way to go
I can just as easily uninstall candy crush from windows, but I shouldn't have to. Those who wanna play it, will install it. Just keeping on adding stuff by saying you can uninstall it is bloatware. It increases the ISO size, reduces performance. Makes life difficult to manage your machine.
The inclusion of Snap and Flatpak introduces a separate issue for newcomers: it makes the default installation messy, too complicated and too confusing. See my thread here, I posted a screenshot that just say everything.
This pretty much sums up my experience with Windows
I wouldn't say snap is forced onto the users. The Manjaro Architect has the option to choose between "full" or "minimal" DEs. I guess "minimal" is what you are looking for, it's what I always use. It installs just a media player and a web browser and that's about it.
What I find more troubling is that it could become "too easy" for the users to install proprietary software in 3+ different ways and even harder for the maintainers to take care of everything.
And again, making the usage of proprietary software on GNU/Linux easier just feels wrong.
I really think you guys are barking at the wrong tree. Manjaro has been a proprietary friendly distro for years. For gods sake, it ships with the microsoft office online applications, Steam and the nvidia proprietary drivers.
I would understand if suddenly it was Debian doing something like this, but it's really that surprising that a distro that already ships proprietary software is going to keep doing it?
My tower seems to get along very nicely w/o these. Just using onboard integrated Intel gpu suits me fine. Ergo, not all
essential things are essential...
Ctrl+F5 instead of just F5.
It tells Chromium to refresh the page and the cache of it.
Your personal attitude to snaps makes you think like that. But again, frankly, every single Announcement thread has a trail of previous announcements and wiki posts just to make sure everything newly introduced -- whether it's bugs and resolutions or new features -- is available to be read and understood, because some people update rarely and randomly and they need to know all recent changes and issues. This is clear to everyone who's been here on forum for a while. So, again, this is either moaning or lack of understanding / forum involvement.
Exactly, I emphatically agree with your feeling wrong with using proprietary software, but that's something which I know is a preference and it can't be expected out of a diverse community.
And yes, providing three ways of installing proprietary software and making default the one which in itself is not libre, anti privacy, that's what troubles me. If and when something goes wrong, the contributors of flatpak have been more than willing to help. That's how it has been for years and should be in the open source community.
I freaking loved unity. But guess what, despite it being open, it was so tightly mangled in canonical's universe that the community couldn't pick up properly. This can happen to both snap and flatpak, but again flatpak being open and community based will survive.