Taking a harder line on the forum?


#146

What you consider a “ridiculous notion” is explicitly mentioned on the home page.

Manjaro is a user-friendly Linux distribution based on the independently developed Arch operating system. Developed in Austria, France, and Germany, Manjaro provides all the benefits of the Arch operating system combined with a focus on user-friendliness and accessibility. Manjaro is suitable for newcomers as well as experienced Linux users.

Of course, with such a description, the forum will receive some users that will have “wrongly” thought that Manjaro is newbie friendly.

Is Manjaro lying on its own webpage? If so, then it’s better for Manjaro to be honest about it, define what kind of public it really targets and change the description it gives on its own website so potential users aren’t misled.

If it wasn’t for being “user-friendly”, what’s the goal of Manjaro then; what is its purpose?


#147

As far as I can tell sueridgepipe is determined to tell newcomers not to use Manjaro and Manjaro not to accept newcomers; fortunately neither the newcomers nor Manjaro are listening. :laughing:


#148

“for newcomers” can mean “for some newcomers” or “for all newcomers” :wink:

Second, don’t believe any promises from advertisements.


#149

146 posts on this thread show both much interest and presumably much relevance to the needs of users both new and not so new.

All of this discussion has got me thinking: I wonder how much we all (in those times when we had very limited options and the multitude of Linux distros has certainly given us options now) complained or even worried about any perceived shortcomings in the operation system as such? I mean, I have used that major OS over many, many years and yes, I have had issues and problems with it but at no time really was there a forum like the Manjaro (and indeed other Linux forums) that really allowed full expression of one’s complaints and problems.

So IMO, a Linux user (of any chosen distro) should be happy enough that an unpaid and generally well supported OS/distro is freely available for their needs. To continually ask for more than is reasonably offered and available in these circumstances is arguably not entirely fair and reasonable. For my part I remain grateful and very appreciative of all of the efforts of the many, many volunteers and contributors that make Linux and in our case here, Manjaro such a great thing.


#150

Once more with feeling:

Newbie != Idiot.

User-friendly != Idiot-proof.

If we can get past the phraseology and weird implications that come along certain words having changed their meanings in the minds of “people on the internet” then we can move forwards with this particular topic.

Otherwise, we can change these words if they really do present an unrealistic view of what Manjaro can offer to “idiot users” (and then wait for the coverage to kick in saying “Manjaro reneges on it’s newbie-user-friendly promise which was the only reason Manjaro existed and anyone ever used it!!! OMGeleventyone!”).


We are where we are. Is that where we want to be? If not, how can we go somewhere else?


#151

No useful operating system in the world is idiot proof.

IMO, iOS is the most intuitive and hardest to screw up OS currently widely available(Partially because it is limited in purpose). There are many people who can’t figure out how to use it. People who call in for support almost every day.

These discussions tend to shift to absolutes way too fast. Having a community that welcomes newcomers is not the same thing as having an OS that absolutely anyone can use. Making something more accessible is not the same thing as making it completely bulletproof by limiting functionality.

That being said I struggle with this statement being true:

The fact is, from my perspective, Manjaro has already made this not true. Sure, there are people in these forums who come in needing help but this forum is the place you are suppsed to come to get help. Some of those people leave and some of those people stay and learn and begin to help others. There is also a 3rd group. Regular Manjaro users who never feel the need to sign-in and post on the forum. People who we never hear from who simply use the distro.

It isn’t like people don’t need help with other Linux distros. Linux Mint and/or Ubuntu are the most widely recommended Linux distros for newcomers. To be brutally honest. I don’t find either of those that much easier to use or more reliable than Manjaro. Not only can upgrades be challenging but there are system breaking updates sometimes pushed to those distros too. I am not bashing those distros. It is just that the grass is not always greener on the other side. We just see all the problems here because this is where we live.

This is the same for any OS. There are millions of people all over the world struggling with their Windows/Mac/Linux systems. The internet is filled with their complaints and challenges. The reality is they are a small percentage of the users.

The point of all this is that being a welcoming community involves try to help people who are just getting started. Getting started is overwhelming. Helping people find the information they need, educating them and guiding them to documentation will always be situational and will continue to be a balancing act. It seems unlikley that a hard and fast rule will ever be appropriate for every situation.


#152

I agree. It’s a Linux-related “N-word” that should never be uttered. Beginner, newcomer, anything that does not demean.


#153

I believe that Discourse makes a better discussion-type forum rather than a technical, help forum. But we went through a lot of growing pains (just ask @jonathon) getting it working, so…

I would like to propose the following:

“Early adopter” Manjaro users sick of repetition should STFU. There’s no reason to keep replying.

That way we allow those newer to Manjaro or the forum to continue in our helpful tradition. It also gives them a chance to try out their new wings, so to speak, and learn by helping others.

I remember when even the oldest member here was just another Manjaro newcomer. We all were. But we still managed to help each other figure stuff out.

And we can maybe back-off a bit to leave room for them to grow, just as we have.

Of course, this may sound too simplistic. No hard-fast rules, it calls for personal decisions. Should I answer this easy-to-me question, or leave it for someone else? Things like that.

Or maybe it will help just by having this discussion thread. Things always have a way of working themselves out when an honest effort is made.

Maybe we need a Manjaro Emeritus for another status choice, @jonathon?


#154

I know, that was my point, it creates a false and misleading user expectation.

To make Arch more accessible to the masses and allow an Arch based system significantly easier to install and maintain.

That does not mean it is suitable for most Linux novices.

Nearly all the packages in the Manjaro repos are built and packaged by Arch Linux maintainers, this should tell you something.

As long as new users have an industrious attitude and want to learn then with the help of the community they will be fine, but without the will to accumulate knowledge they will drown (often angrily).


#155

Yep, we hook 'em and land 'em. Seems to be working, if our growth is any reflection.

Therein lies the problem. We’ve landed 'em and now we have to prepare them. We created the Monster we’re trying to slay. It’s just that first we have to teach the Monster to walk. Eeesh!

Ergo 9 year old wizards in Arch Linux.


#156

I tend now to give the page number where the user should read in the User Guide


#157

This more than anything else. You have the option to ignore anything on this forum, exercise it people. The new user asking the question is not the problem, the whole purpose of Manjaro is stated. This is neither misleading or wrong. This is the goal, it has not changed, and probably should not change. If you have incoming fire, and don’t like it because it is hitting too close to home, you move your position to a safer spot. No one is being forced to answer anything, no one is being forced to read a topic, no one is even required to look at this forum, so what is the problem? Someone is using their computer the way they want to, and I don’t like it! It is about as silly as giving a ■■■■ about what someone else does with their body, their house, or any other possession. Let those who want to answer questions answer them, and if you find yourself getting angry, back off and remember to mind your own business, because you are not the boss of them and their stuff. They were invited to dinner, and if you don’t want to be the host, let someone alse be the host, go have a drink in another room.


#158

The implementation of this personal policy may be more difficult than it seems. :wink:


#159

It is almost as easy as ignoring a trespasser who would ■■■■ on your lawn. You can even be happy about free fertilizer.


#160

Absolutely. All it takes is a bad day and the wrong troll pressing your buttons :wink:


#161

Ain’t a tresspasser if you invited him. More like your drunk friend, who needs a babysitter.


#162

'F em. Johnny has been dead weight since he got here, and besides he’s your buddy.


#163

Copy: