Feature request: dedicated update-manager


#21

I don’t think so, it would just transparently inform the user about what is going on. I think everyone, (even newcomers) value changelogs when updating their Android or iOS apps. And the release announcement is just that: a changelog for the Distro. But it in fact would raise the concern whether the forum can handle the multiplied traffic as mentioned by @sueridgepipe

That would indeed IMHO fix the issue to a large extent! Only that the GUI methods would need to be modified to not allow to do system updates …


#22

recent comments suggest that some consider it unacceptable to be made to read anything


#23

there are only some options that i see
make it fully automatic problem free (its nearly impossible)
make it mandatory in all manjaro edition to have only one way of upgrading and stick to it.and make this as only recommended way of updating manjaro.
like implementing to run in terminal mode in gui pamac with command pamac upgrade
and enable downgrade by default.and make sure to use only pamac upgrade
this way system wont break.(or at least breaking can be avoided by using only one method of upgrading) so at least upgrading method can be fixed and for other issue manjaro-system is there.also notification of critical updates in pamac.is necessary if it concerns usage of tty.
as to why not pacman,it has more than one way of updating
pacman -Syu
pacman -Syyu
pacman -Syyuu
pacman -Syuu


#24

Simply because they don’t head over to the announcement thread (because for a year or so it wasn’t necessary for them) it doesn’t automatically mean that they would find it unacceptable.

Those who really do find that unacceptable are very welcome … elsewhere. If really someone says, “oh no reading a few lines and going to the terminal for upgrade is unacceptable” when the system automatically prompts him to do so cannot be helped anyways. So we shouldn’t stop improving what we like because there may be ignorant people not digging into it. I very much agree with @jonathon here: no need to make it idiot-proof.


#25

It appears that @Chrysostomus has already something in the trunk that could do the job after what seems to be minor adaptation at some other end … This in fact really sound promising. Would it also work in the other editions XFCE, KDE?


#26

it should work as long as all edition provide pamac


#27

This quote is VERY suitable to be included to the Manjaro Homepage, IMHO.

I am willing to buy you a case of beer or equivalent prize, if/when you can make it happen. :wink:


Call for feedback: Manjaro homepage "About Manjaro" text changes
#28

This has all been discussed before. It becomes clear that at least a notifier with warnings/announcements/recommendations is needed. Th update announcement was very clear and there was even a prior systemd update (I downgraded it that time, because I was running the newer systemd for quite some time). So this as been very well handled IMO. If there was a popup/dialog upon upgrade, many users could have been spared from a broken system.


#29

It’s not request I thought that can be interesting.
I’ve seen Chrysostomus add-on for gnome and it inspired me to do something similar with Zenity but the major problem with this is that zenity don’t hide syntaxes from rss feed and output is a pretty mess. Don’t know how to managed this so I linked to /c/announcements/stable-updates

zenity_updates_announcements() {
	 zenity  --text-info --title="Manjaro Stable Updates Announcements" --ok-label="Forum" --cancel-label="Close" --width="1000" --height="600" --html --url="https://forum.manjaro.org/c/announcements/stable-updates"
	if [[ $? == 1 ]]; then
		exit 0
	else
		exo-open https://forum.manjaro.org
	fi
exit 0
}

I’ using same script for gitlab updates :smiley:


#30

One thing that I think would improve usability for everyone would be an option to separate instructions for manual intervention from the usual output.
For example, “downloading xxx” and “installing xxx” lines could go to stdout, while stuff like “warning: xxx installed as xxx.pacnew” could go to stderr. That way, I could pipe stdout to a log file and only ever look at it when something went wrong, and at the same time have a list of stuff to take care of nicely organized and printed. (I just had the idea. Maybe this is already the case?)
A GUI could take this even further by for example providing options to display config file diffs and pick a version…

Essentially: Improve signal/noise ratio on both tty and the update announcements.


#31

Those use directly pamac for update notifications, so no. Gnome no longer supports system tray and was generally using too much ram, so I wrote a lighter alternative to msm-notifier and pamac tray icon. Ram consumption in pamac seems to have been reduced significantly since then.

For xfce and kde, it would require integrating the solution to pamac itself.

But anyway, the requirement for it to work is some kind of data stream that reliably reports only the critical updates. Currently, there is no such stream, and I was somehow unable to communicate the need for it @philm. So, that’s the biggest obstacle for the implementation, the coding side is simple by comparison.

I don’t think that is a good idea. User should be free to bork their system if they want, that is the linux way. We should rather help them make informed choices about the matter. My script had a button to run the next update in terminal if there was an triggering announcement. But still, the choice should be left to the user.


#32

But for a GUI app, this maybe a choice, like a setting/switch to “Protect me from risky updates”.
Pamac may have a flag for --force-risky-updates, pacman will not need a switch (“bruteforce” :laughing:).
I find it a decent idea.


#33

If an update is critical, one sometimes knows only after having stared into the black (screen). So I would recommend to in fact notify EVERY update that gets announced and to present a shortcut for the most safe method to do the update. Then the user still has the choice to do otherwise and borka his system. But I guess the vast majority would do as recommended.

Inform the user and make it easy to to the right thing. Currently the user can do 10 “GUI-updates” and all is fine and the 11th time he is opening a support thread, where he gets informed what he should have done instead. Currently it’s easier to do it “wrong” (i.e. possibly unsafe) than to do it “right”. So I very much welcome the idea to:

  1. grab the update-announcement,
  2. “throw it to the users head” and
  3. inform him that for updates (optionally: of a given size in packages, or incl. “system-critical” packages) he should do Ctrl-F2 and so a sudo pamac -Syyuu (or, optionally do a script that semi-automates this).

I am willing to fund the development of such an implementation (at least partially).


#34

Manjaro is rolling release distribution. It can be more errors in Manjaro that others. If Manjaro has the solution, just to notify announcement before update should be in the app (pamac), not in the site, because pamac says “Updates available”, not the site. Then the rest is user’s choice. You see, in the community one of two topics related to “System broken after last update”. Answer of the topic is “You didn’t read the announcement”.
It can be also very useful if announcement is categorized with headings like “Important”, “Recommendations”, “Changelog” and etc.
This is my opinion. I had also created issue and said several times in gitlab


#35

But the one making announcements knows, or if he doesn’t, then the announcement would not help anyway. As it is, 10/11 times the update announcement will not give you any additional information beyond what pamac/pacman already tells you. So I think tagging the 11th time as critical would be a good move from the announcer.

I can do an update advisor app, no problem. The problem is, it needs to be used from the announcement end.


#36

Sometimes also the one making the announcement makes an error as well, so it would in any case beneficial to point the user to a very safe update method. There is nothing wrong to use the terminal even if the GUI tools would have handled it nicely. And in any case it would increase user awareness of what updating a rolling Distro in fact means (he should be informed and he should better not rely on half-intransparent update routines; I found Octopi offering to do the update in a terminal did go into the right direction as well).

An update advisor app sounds great!


#37

there are many opinions of what is enough and whats not enough when it comes to alerting the end user to potentially risky updates. most of the people who were effected by this were those that get an alert there are updates and just update without knowing anything further. im not a coder so mind my potential ignorance on this but wouldnt making that same alert icon reactive to a certain string of characters for updates that require special intervention like -Syyuu instead of -Syyu. @Chrysostomus you mentioned it needing a two way stream (if i understood correctly), what if say pamac/pacman/octopi could simply(not simply?) recognize a string of characters like “RFUI” (requires further user interaction) as an example and then throw an alert to the user to do just that, on their own but with the correct information needed to not screw up their system.

i know it’s over simplified but is it something thats easily doable? again, i know not what i suggest, just an idea.


#38

In pamac notification is said, for example “to update via terminal is recommended”. Then that people doesn’t do this. What can Manjaro do else?!


#39

Get your money ready:

:rofl:


#40

I did not. At least I didn’t mean to :slightly_smiling_face:

This is what I suggested to happen. The problem, as I see it, is that announcements don’t say RFUI. We can make package managers react to RFUI (or some other tag), but somebody needs to trigger it with RFUI.