Debug symbols for stable packages

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24

That is not possible - the official versions is higher than upstream - debugging is futile.

 $ mbn info strawberry -q | grep -e 'Branch' -e 'Version'
Branch         : archlinux
Version        : 1.2.0-2
Branch         : unstable
Version        : 1.2.0-2
Branch         : testing
Version        : 1.2.0-2
Branch         : stable
Version        : 1.1.2-2


 $ mbn info plasma-workspace -q | grep -e 'Branch' -e 'Version'
Branch         : archlinux
Version        : 6.2.3-1
Branch         : unstable
Version        : 6.2.3-1
Branch         : testing
Version        : 6.2.3-1
Branch         : stable
Version        : 6.1.5-1.0
25

Is there any specific reason why kidletime5 is installed on your system? Maybe that KDE Frameworks 5 (kf5) package is causing the problem with plasmashell. Try removing it to see if that fixes the issue (you should already have kidletime v6 installed as it is a required dependency of plasma-workspace).

1 Like
26

Thank you for looking at this.

$ pamac search kidle
kidletime5  5.116.0-1                                                                                                                                                   extra
    Monitoring user activity
kidletime  6.6.0-1 [Installed]                                                                                                                                          extra
    Monitoring user activity

kidletime5 is not installed, only kidletime 6.6.0-1. Not sure where the message comes from.

1 Like
27

I agree :smile: I only provided this information because @nikgnomic and @Aragorn belittled me asking for debug info for stable packages and hinted that there are other ways of figuring out, what caused the crash, and alleged that I am simply using the wrong tool to do it, because all I know is a proper stack trace.

I try to make it really clear:

I KNOW there is currently no debug info for stable packages in Manjaro.
I believe that having debug info for stable packages would be very helpful to quickly analyze a crash, especially a random one, and produce meaningful and actionable bug reports.

I don’t know WHY Manjaro doesn’t provide debug info for stable packages.
Is it

a) a technical problem
b) limited resources (time, money, …) and a low priority issue
c) the Manjaro team firmly believes that debug symbols for all stable packages are simply not needed

28

none of the above

and this is why - someone please correct me if this is inaccurate:

Manjaro takes most packages directly from Arch

  • at that time they go into the unstable branch of Manjaro
  • at that time, there is current debug info from Arch available

Then the packages go over some time period through the testing branch into the stable branch - which presumably most Manjaro users use, you included.

At the time when the packages arrive in the stable branch, Arch has moved along and the available debug info is no longer current for these slightly older packages.

… and no one is going to rebuild them, just in case someone wants to have the debug symbols for them

2 Likes
29

plasma-workspace is maintained by Manjaro

strawberry and kidletime are inherited from Arch

Branch compare for Manjaro - kidletime
stable :6.6.0-1
testing :6.7.0-1
unstable :6.7.0-1

30

I don’t agree with that assessment. I think it’s a combination of (a) and (b). The manjaro team would have to host a debuginfod server with debuginfod for each package from the arch linux repositories, as well as the packages they build themselves.

That’s correct. But there are packages built by the manjaro team (such as xorg-server), for which no debug info is provided anywhere at any time.

31

I guess you could also put it like that.
mkay

true (?)
… I put the question mark because I guess this is true - but I don’t know it to be …

What would be the amount of time and effort and resources needed
vs
who and how many people actually (and I do mean actually) would be perusing that?

How many users of the stable branch would even know what to do with these … weird things? :wink:

What is the cost/benefit ratio?

I’ll hazard a guess and say - not justified to do it. :man_shrugging:
Not even close …

Change to unstable and you are all set.
This is Manjaro - not Arch.

1 Like
32

Debian, Ubuntu, etc. also have debuginfod servers. I think dismissing it as unnecessary is not ideal…

I don’t believe this to be practical at all. This is an investment that few people will make for the sake of a bug report in my opinion. It also does not work if someone has an issue that is rarely reproducible.

Well I don’t know the internal architecture of the infrastructure, so I cannot tell. But arch linux has already developed the tooling needed for this.

I imagine they could just sync the debug data when they sync the other packages, e.g. from Index of /pool/packages-debug/ or other mirrors. Then they need to deploy a debuginfod server. This would already help immensely since all packages from arch would now have debug data on all branches.

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33

And they provide the packages as well.
This is the concept of Manjaro:
only it’s unstable branch uses the Arch base directly - it’s therefore essentially the same as Arch
The stable branch gets these later - while Arch has already moved on in many cases.

perhaps
neither you nor I know how feasible and how costly (work intensive …) that would be.

Would it?
Whom would it help?

cost / benefit … remember?

You can wish.
You can advocate for it.
You can volunteer the time and resource … :wink:

cost / benefit … remember?

Or:
you can use Arch … or EOS, for that matter :wink:
or Manjaro unstable branch …

… it would be good to have …
… it can’t be that expensive …
is easy to say until you try to do it …

3 Likes
34

Debian and derivatives such as Ubuntu are also not so-called rolling release distributions. For distributions that are, one supposes a greater complication due to the indeterminate nature, or pace, of software iterations released to all branches.

In comparison, Debian, Ubuntu, and many other distributions have a clearly defined incremental release cycle which is perhaps more conducive to coordinated debug releases.

Beyond these observations I’ll not argue pros and cons.

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35

Those that want to debug distribution provided packages. To report a bug, to profile a performance issue, to use valgrind. I am by no means saying that a everybody would use these tools, but for those that want them, their lack is very inconvenient.

Debian also has experimental, testing, and unstable branches, which are comparable to arch linux. And those branches also have debug data support via debuginfod.

OpenSUSE Tumbleweed is also pretty much a rolling distribution. It also has a debuginfod server. Same with Artix Linux, Void Linux.

1 Like
36

there was more:
cost / benefit ratio - remember?

Manjaro is a bit different - they just take the packages from their parent distro (Arch), then delay them, hold them back.
It’s supposed to provide a more stable result.

It’s also creating some issues precisely because of that.
(it’s why I don’t actually use it - but that is my personal choice and opinion and a separate matter)

They would need to invest time and effort to keep and provide the original debug symbols, which, let’s be honest, almost no one is going to use. :man_shrugging:

Yes, they do - but the similarity in branch name does not translate directly to what Manjaro does.

as I said:
you may advocate for it - or may put the work in yourself to make it happen

It’s not going to happen just because you
(as in: a member of a quite small minority of users of the stable branch)
would find it convenient.

You can always put in some work and recompile and end up with having the debug info you want.

and:
no one is going to act on it, because a different version, a newer version, is already available - where the issue might be solved already

There is a reason why Arch doesn’t accept complaints or bug reports from Manjaro users (stable in particular).
Essentially: it’s just old news to them …

for the current version at any one time - not for every version in the past
… I’d guess - or do you know better?

ps:
I just saw by clicking your avatar picture, that you state that you are using unstable.
You should have no problem at all with this - you are essentially using a slightly modified Arch
and for you, the available debug info is current and usable.

2 Likes
37

I don’t think so. Debian packages also move from branch to branch just like manjaro packages. Obviously stable and oldstable are different, but there is similar movement in other branches.

I cannot make it happen. This requires a change in the package building pipeline to create and publish debug packages as well. The most anyone can do is creating a cache that holds the arch linux debug packages for those versions that are shipped by manjaro. This would still be useful as I have mentioned it earlier, but without endorsement of the team and inclusion in the default DEBUGINFOD_URLS (/etc/profile.d/debuginfod.sh et al.), there is probably not a lot of people who have the motivation, resources, or knowledge to implement it.

Except that is not too useful if one wants to debug a coredump and the build is not completely reproducible. And for system wide profiling you’d have to recompile a large number of packages.

I am not too sure that is relevant. Yes, I am using the unstable branch, but I am thinking of those that use the stable or testing branches. Also, sometimes the unstable branch of manjaro lags behind arch linux, so no debug info in those cases either. And there is no debuginfo available at all for those packages that are built for the manjaro team.

In any case, I think we have reached the point where the discussion is no longer productive. We’re both saying our own thing while we are in no position to change the status quo. It would be nice to get a (semi-)formal opinion from the manjaro team about this issue. I don’t know if there is one, if so, I must have missed it.

1 Like
38

:+1: agreed