Can we have in the install slideshow a tip about reading stable announcements?

#1

I am a pretty noob user. But after a couple of years i found out that the only way to avoid breaking the system before an upgrade is to read the stable announcement post, evaluate the possible issues and follow the provided instructions.

My question is: why is this information not relayed to all the noobs installing Manjaro??? Can we get inside the install slideshow in Calamares a slide with a warning tip that explains this? At least this way users have no right to complain if something breaks.

A lot of people think that Manjaro is Ubuntu plus newer and cooler stuff and they don't understand (or don't want to hear about) the innate risks that a rolling release entails. I think something must be done about it.

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#2

What is the text mentioned on the 4th slider of the installer, right after creating the user? Do you remember? :slight_smile: (i'm almost tempted to bet you don't remember - but you could check it first and then reply, so it would not be quite fair)
If you don't remember, what makes you think someone else will remember any of the slides?

People can set notifications to read the announcements. Should there be a reminder for it? How about a notification to remind the reminder? :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

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#3

I know that the slides right now are pretty "anonymous", with bland colours and "default linux distros info messages", but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be touched! If a maintaner puts a slide with a warning sign and a tagline saying: " this is a rolling distro, to avoid issues during updates always check stable announcements @ forum.manjaro.org" i think at least 70% of the users would understand the message and act accordingly (for the 30% that never listens obviously nothing can be done).

Users truthfully don't know about it, the welcome Hello page doesn't specify it, the installation process doesn't mention it and the new users (unjustifiably so) expect Debian levels of stability out of the box, while we know that at least a little bit of work is needed for Manjaro to work properly. The message must be conveyed in the most direct way possible imo.

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#4

Not that i disrespect newbies, but Manjaro IS more stable than ANY Debian based distro i tested myself, so their expectations are founded, but what they don't admit is that requires some reading to do, by their own volition and not by external visuals/invitations, so they can apply the correct way to deal with Manjaro updates.

Did you run a study/statistics on/about this or you just make numbers up? :slight_smile:

You understand that NOTHING can change ignoramus, or you want to say that this page, and the Manjaro User Guide (that is present on Live media and all installs) requires more attention on how things are described?
https://manjaro.org/features/fresh-and-stable/

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#5

You're debating form over substance. If Manjaro is stabler than Debian no reading should be required, except you also agree that reading is required, so which one is that?

Also it's not reading per se, but more delivering a message whose existence some users may not know.

Lastly the percentage you referenced it's approximated by discussions i had on the argument, but if you feel like voiding my question because of it then you're just flaming for the sake of it.

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#6

I do see your point about making it more known that maintaining a Manjaro system often requires reading the announcements.

But how do you propose we do that?
Because a slide in the installer is not gonna help anything, because people don't really look at it that much.

Does Debian come with the notion that the software it installs is probably years out of date, in the installer?

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#7

How can you say that it's not gonna help at all? I think it's the most useful spot, because the user cannot simply close the window without reading anything like with Manjaro Hello after the install.

I'd say it should be tried, at least better than nothing and will somewhat limit the broken system spam after very big updates.

If you have a better idea and a better spot please tell me, i would be very curious if you found one.

#8

You heard that somewhere or read it without understanding the context of it, but is absolutely no case here. Nice try!

You are a healthy person right, maybe healthier than others, so why eating then? That's the kind of logic you want to use?

Is not "my percentage"! I referenced it because YOU mentioned it. Did you discuss with all Manjaro users or the percentage refers to a number only you know? How many people: 100, 200, 300 ... a million ?

Ohhh ... now i see, is about "your idea is better than ..."
ok ...

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#9

@bogdancovaciu You are not reading. You are debating from a place of malice and/or hatred. You are flaming me in a forum, that by its definition should be very open to all users. And it looks like you don't care about new users because you don't want to inform them that reading stable announcements before applying an upgrade can solve a lot of issues and save a lot of time.

Please refrain from commenting further if you want to keep this toxic behaviour, thank you very much.

#10

If you are going to call my comment as toxic, then you have to call my entire activity on the forum as toxic. Can you do that or not? I don't think you can, so don't victimize yourself!
I invite you to get the facts first before you project AGAIN ... OK?

The Manjaro User Guide, The Manjaro official web page, the Manjaro Forum, the entire community is a cumulus of invitations to get informed towards all people that want to use Manjaro Linux. The announcements are a invitation to get informed. How many invitations someone needs to "get it" ?

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#11

Informed on what? Do you understand that normal people, the one that use Linux for watching cat videos don't give a damn about information? But maybe saying to them: "there is this way to skip all the troubleshooting and go back to watch cat videos" would be interesting to them (and helpful for the forum btw). If you don't understand i truly don't know how to explain it in a clearer way.

#12

Read this statement again

Is a natural thing for you to be inconsistent in your own words or you try hard to prove that?
If the people you mentioned

what makes you think will not ignore a information on a slider that shows maybe twice during the installation?
What is this

you are talking about? First you had clear percentages and now you make predictions based on maybe?
Don't you see that you actually answered to your own question and debunked your own proposal?

I have nothing against you or your proposal, that is why i engaged in the discussion, but the arguments you use don't follow, and i'm not saying it to antagonize, nor insult you.

#13

I say "maybe" because i cannot see the future and i don't know every single Manjaro users (even though i converted 5 of them). If you think i know all the Manjaro users in the world and that i can see the future i don't know what to say. It's very flattering though.

#14

This is better and more than sufficient.

#15

First of all, thank you for your suggestion and desire to make Manjaro better.

That being said, you should know that you walked into a topic that is heavily debated and one that some people have entrenched beliefs on.

Some things you should be aware of:

  • Not everyone even agrees that reading the announcements is a requirement
  • The information is already in several places and some people believe that the people who don't read the announcement also won't read yet another place for the information
  • Not everyone agrees on what level of experience and expectations a Manjaro user should have
  • There are probably 20 more positions that I am not thinking of right now

I think your suggestion is reasonable and I will move it to #manjaro-development:feature-request so it has a better chance of getting viewed.

I am also going to close this thread since it has devolved into something that seems unproductive. The people who have the ability to implement this request, also have the ability to re-open it if they feel that it merits further discussion

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closed #16
#17

I have received requests to re-open this as people would like to participate in the discussion. Since this now has been moved to a feature request I would only ask that we try to keep the discussion focused on the actual idea presented and not be defensive or attacking.

It is also worth noting that it may have been better if I had created a new thread in #manjaro-development:feature-request since there is now some stuff here that came from #general-discussion:rants-and-raves that would have probably not been said if this has started out as a feature request.

opened #18
#19

I am the person that requested this topic be re-opened, as I believe it is worthy of further discussion.

I wish to address a couple of thoughts...

Unless that "normal person" was handed a computer with Linux pre-installed it was put there for a reason, by someone either wanting to learn more about Linux or someone wanting to use it as their operating system for as many reasons as there are (practically) users. Heck, I love cat videos but that is not all I do with my OS.

That's about all we can do. The term "rolling release" should be clue enough, at least for a Google search to see if a user wants to be involved with such. I remember being scared enough by that term to forego that kind of distribution for quite some time.

But don't we do it enough already? I think the post below illustrates that we do.

But this quote I don't much care for.

"After a couple of years." A couple of years? And I see you didn't even bother to join the forum until a year ago. So in the year prior to that you, what, went it alone? Did you ever have any update problems that resulted in you consulting the forum or reading update announcements? Wouldn't doing that even once be a convincer that it should be a prudent practice then and in the future?

I've been reading these forums for a while. 'Busted update' posts usually appear just after an announcement is made and @philm releases the updates. I wonder what generated this topic? Was it a wish to help?

Personally, I think @bennyhillthebest has a valid suggestion as first posted: "Can we get inside the install slideshow in Calamares a slide with a warning tip that explains this?" I don't think that it is too much to ask.

And another thing. Over a 35-year career that involved a lot of report writing I learned to keep an addendum that covered every possible topic a reviewer of those reports might bring to my attention. It was always more efficient to point to where their concern was already addressed in the addendum, than to add to the existing report.

So if we continue to to improve Manjaro documentation, increment by increment, surely at some point we'll be able to point to that particular thing, whatever it is, and say, "See, we gotcha covered."

In other words, we can be open enough to suggestions that the "state" of Manjaro rolls right along with the packages. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

best regards to all

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